Montana Fish and Wildlife Commission
Special meeting, September 24, 2026
9 Matters · 3 votes · 0 from the floor · 0 raised by Members
Documents 4
Not on the agenda
No Member brought up a Matter that was not on the agenda, and no motion or amendment was brought up without being posted beforehand.
Decisions
- 24-hour trap check requirementPassed Vote on the motion to deny the petition to start rulemaking on a 24-hour trap check requirement for traps and snares on public lands. “Motion carries” 2:13:12
- Administrative Rulemaking Petition – Bear Spray RequirementPassed Voice vote on the motion to deny the petition requiring hunters, trappers, outfitters and guides to carry bear spray in grizzly bear habitat. “Motion carries” 3:16:29
- Initiation of Administrative Rulemaking Process – Predator Management PolicyPassed Vote on the motion authorizing staff to prepare a draft MAPA rule notice for a predator management policy. “Motion carries” 4:35:42
On the agenda
Informational Update – Licensing Report
0:18:28–0:58:12
Summary
The Commission received an informational licensing trends presentation from FWP licensing staff; Members could ask questions, but no public comment was taken. 0:18:28
Robinson Okay, we're gonna start the meeting with a licensing update from Emily Cooper, and this will not have public comment, but the commissioners will be able to ask Emily questions, however you want to do it, Emily, throughout the presentation if they come up. Probably if you guys could raise your hands, can you? Is there someone that can tell Emily if the hand is raised? Jesse can see. Okay, perfect. Okay, let's go ahead. Thank you.
Staff reported that the 2026 nonresident deer combination drawing started with 8,226 licenses: the 4,600 statutory base quota plus 1,122 unclaimed landowner-sponsored licenses and 2,505 'orphan deer' licenses split off from elk combination licenses. 0:24:34
Emily Cooper (staff) The statute says Then we added that 1,122 of unclaimed landowner sponsored, and then the 2,505 of the orphan deer for a starting total of 8,226. This number is different every time we do the drawing, so it— because of the, the nature of our drawings. So there are a couple statutory and administrative rule license restrictions for non-residents. Montana Code says we restrict big game licenses and permits for non-residents to no more than 10%. So they can have no more than 10%, a maximum of, but not a guarantee of 10%.
Staff reported that nonresidents provide 76% of all hunting license revenue and 80% of deer and elk license revenue. 0:31:25
Emily Cooper (staff) This is all hunting license revenue that residents bring in 24% of that revenue and non-residents 76% of that revenue for overall hunting licenses. Specific to deer and elk license revenue, that split is 80% for residents, or sorry, 80% for non-residents and 20% for residents.
Staff reported that survey estimates show active resident elk hunters falling by about 4,000 while nonresident elk hunters rose by about 1,600. 0:35:43
Robin Bartsch (staff) All right, now we talked about license and revenue. Now let's see where they're hunting and how long. So specifically, this is the statewide active deer hunter estimates from 2015 to 2025. This is an estimate that we do from a random sample from our hunter harvest survey. You can see residents have decreased since 2015, where we do have a slight increase of non-residents since 2015. Same here, this is a statewide active elk hunter numbers from 2015 to 2025. Once again, we do see a decrease in residents by about 4,000, an increase in non-residents about 1,600.
Robinson said she had not realized that unclaimed landowner-sponsored licenses go into the general deer combination pool, bringing it close to double the intended 4,600, and staff said a legal review had confirmed that statute allows this. 0:45:15
Emily Cooper (staff) Yeah, you bet. This is Emily. So we actually had legal do a review on those unclaimed landowner sponsor licenses to make sure that we were executing it correctly. And statute does actually outline that we can take those licenses that are unclaimed and add them to the general license pool. So we did look into that and that is, we're, we're above board on I'm not saying that you're above board on it.
Burrows argued that landowner-sponsored tags meant for hunting a sponsoring landowner's deeded land should not be moved into a general pool that adds nonresident pressure on public and block management land. 0:48:06
Burrows I don't see the nexus to take a landowner-sponsored tag that was intended for them to hunt landowner-sponsored deeded land and then drop them into a pool where we now have block management and public land impacts from nonresidents. I think if I would have known that, we hopefully could add some more discussion about dropping those, and maybe it's a director decision, but I really hope that decision is considered seeing those impacts and hearing the fact that non-residents are hunting the eastern part of the state more and harvesting more mule deer.
Robinson agreed with Burrows and asked staff to find out whether the released landowner-sponsored tags fall under the Commission's jurisdiction, which staff agreed to do. 0:54:57
Robinson Chair Robinson? Yep, I just have a follow-up to the landowner-sponsored tags. Could I— could you check Between, or, you know, whenever you can to see if that is under our jurisdiction, the ones that were released, because I am completely in agreement with Commissioner Burrows that it's not really the same intention for those tags. And so I, I know I spent a lot of time with the staff trying to figure out this deer tag stuff last year and what our jurisdiction was and what it, what it wasn't. And I don't remember having this conversation at all.
Burrows said the House Bill 568 questionnaire on the FWP website misses the bill's aim of identifying nonresident impacts, and staff responded that a more formal survey asking those questions is being analyzed for the December report. 0:51:22
Quentin (staff) And that does more deliberately ask those sorts of questions that you referenced. So again, the piece on the website, um, Is not the whole, and in fact is kind of a second add-on just to accompany the introduction to the public of that core data that were— that will ultimately also show up with some analysis in the 568 report itself, if that helps.
Points made 34
- Staff explained that A licenses (antlered or either-sex) are used mainly to manage age structure and male ratios without significantly affecting population trajectories, while B licenses are used specifically to manage population trends. 0:19:48
- Staff explained that a license allows its holder to harvest and possess an animal, while a permit only expands or restricts a license and cannot be held without one. 0:20:30
- Staff noted that nonresident licenses are capped in statute: 17,000 shared between big game and elk combination licenses, 4,600 deer combination licenses, 2,000 landowner-sponsored deer combination licenses, and 500 of each Come Home to Hunt license type. 0:22:33
- Staff reported that the 2026 nonresident deer combination drawing started at 8,226 licenses: the 4,600 base quota plus 1,122 unclaimed landowner-sponsored licenses and 2,505 'orphan deer' licenses split off from elk combination licenses. 0:24:34
- Staff explained that statute caps nonresidents at a maximum of 10% of big game licenses, but administrative rule lets nonresidents receive more than 10% when every resident applicant has already received a license. 0:26:01
- Staff explained that surplus licenses left after a drawing have already been subject to the 10% nonresident restriction and are sold over the counter to anyone regardless of residency. 0:27:30
- Staff summarized statutory changes, including I-161 eliminating outfitter-sponsored licenses, House Bill 140 creating the base hunting license, Senate Bill 281 limiting nonresident deer B licenses, and House Bill 568, a study of hunting pressure and nonresident participation on public lands due by December 1, 2026. 0:29:23
- Staff noted recent Commission actions, including reducing the number of orphan deer licenses created by elk combinations and cutting the maximum deer licenses per resident from 8 to 3, along with making all Region 1 elk B licenses valid on private land only. 0:30:09
- Staff reported that nonresidents pay far more for comparable licenses (for example $1,312 versus $64.50 for a sportsman package) and provide 76% of all hunting license revenue and 80% of deer and elk license revenue. 0:31:25
- Staff reported that total hunting licenses issued from 2016 to 2025 rose by 86,264 for nonresidents and 22,866 for residents. 0:31:57
- Staff reported that nonresident elk B license sales more than doubled over ten years, rising by 2,585, while resident elk B sales rose by 3,697. 0:33:22
- Staff reported that in 2025, 81% of resident deer and elk hunters held licenses for both species, while nonresidents were more evenly split, and that nonresidents buying only a B license are increasing. 0:34:46
- Staff reported that survey estimates show active resident deer and elk hunters declining (about 4,000 fewer resident elk hunters) while nonresident hunters increased (about 1,600 more for elk). 0:35:43
- Staff reported that statewide deer and elk hunting days have increased since 2004 for both residents and nonresidents, with more nonresident deer hunter days in Regions 6 and 7. 0:37:50
- Staff reported that block management enrollment declined about 7.5% from 2015 to 2025 while hunter days increased 75%, with the largest acreage loss, about 300,000 acres, in Region 7. 0:39:14
- Staff reported that nonresidents made up 51% of block management hunters in Region 6 and 41% in Region 7 in 2025, though residents remain the majority statewide. 0:39:56
- Staff projected that nonresident license revenue will remain an important part of total revenue and that hunter effort will remain high even if resident participation keeps declining. 0:41:25
- In answer to a question from Walsh, staff explained that for landowner-sponsored deer licenses the resident landowner applies first and then gives a certificate to the nonresident hunter, who applies separately. 0:42:34
- Staff explained that for the nonresident relative of a resident license the nonresident applies personally and must supply documentation such as a Montana birth certificate. 0:43:22
- Staff explained that the Come Home to Hunt license does not require Montana birth but does require hunting in the field with the resident relative. 0:43:45
- Robinson said she had not realized unclaimed landowner-sponsored licenses go into the general deer combination pool, bringing it close to double the 4,600 intended, and staff responded that a legal review confirmed statute allows this. 0:45:15
- Staff explained that surplus licenses are released at the director's direction under administrative rule, and that the director's office reviews them weeks to months after the drawing rather than releasing them automatically. 0:46:24
- Burrows argued there is no nexus for moving landowner-sponsored tags, intended for hunting a sponsoring landowner's deeded land, into a general pool that adds nonresident pressure on public and block management land, especially as nonresidents increasingly hunt eastern Montana mule deer. 0:48:06
- Robinson agreed with Burrows that the released landowner-sponsored tags do not serve the same intent and asked staff to determine whether they fall under Commission jurisdiction, which staff agreed to do. 0:54:57
- Burrows noted that the House Bill 568 questionnaire link on the FWP website was labeled House Bill 536, and staff said this was a mistake they would look into. 0:49:33
- Burrows said the website questionnaire's three open questions miss the bill's aim of identifying nonresident impacts, and staff responded that it is only an add-on and a more formal human dimensions survey asking those questions is being analyzed for the December report. 0:51:22
- Wargo asked whether hunter effort could be broken down into average days per hunter to see if a select group drives the increase, and staff offered to follow up separately with the data providers. 0:53:09
- Wargo pointed out that undersubscribed resident tags in the 900 archery antelope draw flowed to nonresidents, giving nonresident applicants about a 78% success rate, and staff said they would look into it. 0:54:08
- Wargo remarked that he encountered no nonresidents in the Bob Marshall over the weekend. 0:51:57
- Robinson requested upland bird license trends broken out by region, and staff agreed to provide them. 0:47:17
- Burrows asked that future presentations correlate license numbers with hunter success and harvest, and staff agreed to add it. 0:57:09
- It was noted that much of the harvest information would come in the House Bill 568 report in December, though a Member observed that would be after the Commission's meeting and useful for the following year. 0:57:21
- A Member asked for the slides to digest the information, and staff said they had been sent and would be posted online after the meeting. 0:57:46
- Members praised the presentation as helpful for understanding resident and nonresident impacts on the landscape. 0:47:26
Transcript 124 passages
On the agenda Passed
24-hour trap check requirement
0:58:15–1:35:42 · 1:38:49–2:13:41
Also came up at: October 14, 2026 regular meeting
What was decided
- Motion Burrows moved to deny the petition asking the Commission to start rulemaking on a 24-hour trap check requirement; Lane seconded. Burrows withdrew the motion, with Lane's agreement, so the petitioners could present first. 1:03:37
- Motion After the petitioners' presentation, Burrows again moved to deny the petition to start rulemaking on a 24-hour trap check requirement for traps and snares on public lands; Lane seconded. 1:13:38
- Passed Vote on the motion to deny the petition to start rulemaking on a 24-hour trap check requirement for traps and snares on public lands. “Motion carries” 2:13:12
Summary
The Commission considered a citizen petition from Footloose Montana and the Gallatin Wildlife Association asking it to start a rulemaking process to require a 24-hour check of traps and snares set on public lands. 0:58:56
Jeff Hindoien (staff) As outlined in the proposal information sheet and on the agenda, the first one is a petition requesting that the commission initiate a MAP rulemaking process to adopt a requirement for a 24-hour trap check for traps and snares set on public lands. Is under the process, you know, set forth in the statute, the Commission has 60 days to render a decision on a petition of this type, then issue a written decision. Your option in these cases is to approve the petition for rulemaking.
Staff (Jeff Hindoien) explained that approving the petition would not adopt a rule; it would only publish a draft rule for written comment and a public hearing before the Commission later decided whether to adopt it. 0:59:38
Jeff Hindoien (staff) You're not actually adopting the rule, but rather just advancing, making a decision to advance it into a process with— it's administered by the Montana Secretary of State. The proposed or draft rule would be published in the Montana Administrative Register. Written comments would be solicited, and public hearing would be held on a draft rule. And then at the conclusion of that process, we would bring those comments and everything back to the Commission for consideration of whether or not to actually adopt a rule.
Burrows moved to deny the petition and Lane seconded, but Burrows withdrew the motion with Lane's agreement so the petitioners could present first, then renewed the motion to deny after their presentation, again seconded by Lane. 1:13:38
Burrows Uh, I would make my motion. I would move to deny the 24-hour trap check petition.
A petitioner argued that science supports a 24-hour check, that FWP recommended a trap check in 2017, and that FWP's own research standards require foothold traps and snares to be checked twice daily. 1:06:44
Public (voice Q) Science supports a 24-hour trap check. In 2017, Fish, Wildlife, and Parks itself recommended implementing a trap check. Fish, Wildlife, and Parks' own professional wildlife research standards require foothold traps and snares to be checked twice daily, or more often depending on the species and risk of non-target capture. Why should trappers be exempt from this professional standard?
A member of the public from Montana Wildlife Federation supported the intent but questioned requiring checks on kill sets and underwater sets, urging a narrower rule covering only live-restraint sets on public land. 1:28:28
Public (voice V) We question the need for requiring 24-hour checks on every trap and snare, which would presumably include kill sets, underwater sets, other sets that would lead to immediate death. You know, we feel these could be cumbersome and unnecessary, lead to increased wildlife disturbance through the winter, etc. Instead, we would encourage a more narrow rulemaking process to proceed, one that clearly defines and includes only live and/or draining trap sets on public land under this mandatory check requirement and such.
The Montana Outfitters and Guides Association opposed the petition, saying a blanket 24-hour check is physically impossible in remote or roadless terrain where weather and geography control access. 1:21:12
Public (voice H) Thirdly, we've heard no reason several times, and so I would ask the petitioners and other supporters to pay close attention to this. A blanket 24-hour check is physically impossible for trappers working in remote wilderness or roadless terrain. Access is governed by weather, weather and geography, not scheduling preference. A requirement that cannot be met in a storm is not a regulation, it is a prohibition. And for that, we urge the Commission to deny this petition. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Commissioners.
Burrows said the petition was not ready, noting that even some likely supporters wanted changes, and Lane added that daily checks would not be feasible or enforceable in a large region like Region 7. 2:07:46
Burrows Just wanted to respond, and Commissioner Wargo kind of touched on it, that that motion was not to do anything without public comment but was just to initiate that public comment and discussion. I made the motion to deny the petition because I don't feel like it was ready for prime time. And I think we heard that from some of the folks that may have typically supported that petition. While there may be some merits to looking at an alternative to what we have now, I appreciate that Trappers Association offering up to those folks that if you want to get together and have a conversation, let's see what we can come up with to maybe come up with a petition that works for everyone.
The motion to deny the petition carried on a voice vote, with no count stated. 2:13:12
Robinson All opposed, same sign. Okay, motion carries. Thank you. Okay, we— does anybody need a break before we go into the next petition? Okay. All right, we'll go ahead into the next petition. We'll follow the same process. Um, I do want to remind you that I will not allow personal attacks. So you can talk about something that somebody else has talked about, please do not use their name when referring to that comment.
Points made 35
- Staff (Jeff Hindoien) explained that the citizen petition asks the Commission to start a rulemaking process under the Montana Administrative Procedure Act, and that approving it would not adopt a rule; it would only publish a draft rule for written comment and a public hearing before the Commission later decided whether to adopt it. 0:59:38
- Staff confirmed that the Commission must make an affirmative decision to either approve or deny the petition, and must do so within 60 days of receiving it. 1:02:23
- Staff noted that the Commission already has authority to set trap check requirements and has used it to adopt species-specific trap checks in its annual furbearer regulations, but has not used the rulemaking-petition process for this kind of rule in a long time. 1:00:12
- Staff said the penalty language in the petition would not go forward in any rulemaking because the legislature sets penalties for trapping violations. 1:01:20
- A petitioner from Footloose Montana withdrew the proposed penalty provision if legal counsel found it required legislative authorization. 1:07:16
- A petitioner argued that science supports a 24-hour check, that FWP recommended a trap check in 2017, and that FWP's own research standards require foothold traps and snares to be checked twice daily. 1:06:44
- Petitioners and several members of the public said 36 states require daily or 24-hour trap checks and that Montana, Alaska and North Dakota are the only states without one. 1:11:09
- A member of the public cited 50 years of studies showing that the length of time an animal is held in a foothold trap predicts how badly it is injured. 1:25:29
- A member of the public cited an FWP report of non-target captures over five years, including 153 domestic dogs and 99 mountain lions, and argued that time in the trap is what maims and kills them. 1:26:15
- A member of the public from Trap Free Montana proposed daily trap checks as a compromise to a strict 24-hour check, and suggested allowing visual checks. 1:21:59
- A member of the public from Montana Wildlife Federation supported the intent but questioned requiring checks on kill sets and underwater sets, and urged a narrower rule covering only live-restraint sets on public land, or else handling the issue in the annual furbearer season setting. 1:28:28
- A member of the public who traps said trappers are already among the most regulated groups the Commission oversees, argued that Montana lacks the biodiversity found in states with 24-hour checks, and offered to meet with the petitioners. 1:15:24
- The Montana Outfitters and Guides Association opposed the petition, saying it offers no Montana-specific evidence of harm and that the legislature rejected the same requirement in 2005 and 2019. 1:20:27
- The Montana Outfitters and Guides Association also said a blanket 24-hour check is physically impossible in remote or roadless terrain, where weather and geography control access. 1:21:12
- Montana Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife opposed the petition as an impossible burden on trappers and on enforcement, noted that no neighboring state has a 24-hour check, and said frequent checks disturb animals and reduce success. 1:23:21
- A member of the public speaking for the Center for Biological Diversity said trapping occurs in habitat of grizzly bears, Canada lynx and wolverines protected under the Endangered Species Act, and that these animals do get caught. 1:45:41
- A member of the public said FWP has documented at least 27 grizzlies caught incidentally in traps, and asked that all such captures on public lands be investigated and reported publicly. 1:59:17
- A member of the public who described himself as a wildlife biologist and trapper said 50 years of research show 24-hour checks are workable even on long trap lines by splitting them into sections, that they produce better pelts, and that they should also cover killing neck snares that do not kill humanely. 1:48:53
- Members of the public noted that the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies' trapper education material tells responsible trappers to check their traps daily. 1:50:56
- A member of the public from Humane World for Animals said most trapped animals in Montana can now be left in traps for weeks, and that removing wolf trap setbacks has led to more non-target captures, such as dogs injured in Mineral County this year. 1:51:34
- A petitioner said physiological stress escalates fastest in the first 24 hours after capture, and that longer restraint is tied to injury, dehydration, starvation, exposure and capture myopathy. 1:54:26
- Several members of the public urged the Commission to amend rather than simply deny the petition, for example by limiting the check to traps that restrain rather than kill. 1:40:04
- A member of the public argued that daily checks would put human scent on trap lines, would not be cost-effective given fuel prices, and would be hard for trappers who work full-time jobs. 2:04:28
- A member of the public who traps said trapped animals are often found asleep rather than in distress, and that a longer check interval is needed to avoid ruining the trap line. 1:49:38
- A petitioner disputed the claim that trapped animals are asleep, saying they are in shock, and pointed to petition photos of a coyote that struggled for nearly 15 hours in a neck snare. 1:53:42
- A member of the public from Wolves of the Rockies urged the Commission not to leave trap check policy to the legislature and to bring stakeholders together to address it. 1:43:52
- A petitioner objected that the Commission had moved to deny the petition before hearing from the petitioners. 2:00:52
- The Chair explained that the special meeting was held because petitions must be answered within a set number of days, not to give anyone special treatment, and staff confirmed this. 2:12:23
- In answer to a question from Wargo, the Chair confirmed that a motion can be modified after public comment. 2:05:56
- Staff explained that if the petition is denied, a trap check could still be adopted through the Commission's annual furbearer regulations or by the legislature, while approval would only open a proposed rule to further public comment. 2:07:10
- Burrows said the petition was not ready, noting that even some likely supporters wanted changes, and welcomed the Trappers Association's offer to work with petitioners on a petition that works for everyone. 2:07:46
- Burrows disputed claims that most Montanans support the petition, saying his reading of the more than 600 pages of written comments did not show majority support. 2:08:34
- Burrows argued that the rule would force enforcement against trappers who physically could not check their lines, suggested a leash law on public lands to protect pets, and said the rule would shorten time in traps but not reduce non-target captures. 2:10:28
- Lane said that in a large region like Region 7, daily checks would not be feasible or enforceable with too few game wardens, and that keeping traps closer would push trappers toward urban areas and cause more conflict. 2:11:20
- Lane said the idea has merit but is not one-size-fits-all for the whole state. 2:12:03
Transcript 246 passages
Raised by public
Name included without consent on Safari Club wolf comment letter
1:35:45–1:36:38
Summary
A speaker objected that their name had been included, without their agreement, on a list of Safari Club members supporting the club's endorsement letter for killing more wolves, a letter submitted to the Fish and Wildlife Commission. 1:35:49
Robinson Chair Robinson and commissioners, my, um, I oppose trapping, and also I'm very upset that my name was included on a list of Safari Club members supporting their endorsement letter for killing more wolves. And this letter was submitted to the Fish and Wildlife Commission.
The name appears among a list of names on page 831 of the August 18th attachments to the wolf comments. 1:36:07
Public (voice O) My name actually appears among a list of names on page 831 of the August 18th attachments to Wolf Comments.
The speaker said they never agreed to sign onto the letter and are not affiliated with the Safari Club. 1:36:15
Robinson I never agreed to sign onto this letter, and I'm not affiliated with the Safari Club.
Points made 5
- The speaker objected that their name was included, without their agreement, on a list of Safari Club members supporting the club's endorsement letter for killing more wolves, a letter submitted to the Fish and Wildlife Commission. 1:35:49
- A member of the public said their name appears in a list of names on page 831 of the August 18th attachments to the wolf comments. 1:36:07
- The speaker said they never agreed to sign onto the letter and are not affiliated with the Safari Club. 1:36:15
- The speaker also said they oppose trapping. 1:35:49
- A member of the public said they oppose the killing of wolves, believe all of the natural world has a right to exist, and said Montanans especially need to be the best stewards of wildlife and its habitat. 1:36:20
Transcript 6 passages
Raised by public
Opposition to wolf harvest
1:37:04–1:38:49
Also came up at: October 14, 2026 regular meeting
Summary
A general comment was offered opposing the harvest of wolves; this Matter was not on the agenda. 1:37:15
Robinson Yep, go ahead. Marvelous, thanks. Um, well, uh, Commissioners, uh, I appreciate the opportunity to comment. Um, I'm gonna have to keep it short here. Um, this is a general comment, uh, regarding, uh, harvest of, of wolves.
The comment cited a biologist who studied wolves in Alaska for 43 years and concluded that, apart from light and sporadic subsistence use where it is traditional, it is best not to allow any harvest of natural wolf populations. 1:37:39
Robinson Biologist Gordon Haber, after studying wolves for 43 years in Alaska, wrote in his book Among Wolves, other than relatively light and sporadic sustenance subsistence use in areas where it's a traditional practice, it is clearly best not to allow any harvest of natural wolf populations. Huh, that's pretty clear. He also wrote, many complex controls operate between predators and prey.
The comment argued that predator-prey relationships left to themselves produce a vigorous, genetically diverse animal community able to withstand severe winters, and invoked Aldo Leopold's principle that a thing is right when it preserves the integrity, stability and beauty of the biotic community. 1:38:13
Robinson When they are left to themselves, the result is an animal community characterized by a high degree of vigor, genetic diversity, great variety, and the ability to withstand major natural disturbances such as severe winters. Aldo Leopold wrote, a thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic community, It is wrong when it tends otherwise.
Points made 3
- A general comment opposing wolf harvest cited a biologist who studied wolves in Alaska for 43 years and concluded that, apart from light and sporadic subsistence use where it is traditional, it is best not to allow any harvest of natural wolf populations. 1:37:39
- It was argued that when the complex controls between predators and prey are left to themselves, the result is an animal community with high vigor, genetic diversity, great variety and the ability to withstand major natural disturbances such as severe winters. 1:38:13
- The comment also invoked Aldo Leopold's principle that a thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability and beauty of the biotic community, and wrong when it tends otherwise, as a reason to oppose wolf harvest. 1:38:13
Transcript 7 passages
On the agenda Passed
Administrative Rulemaking Petition – Bear Spray Requirement
2:13:12–3:16:37
What was decided
- Motion Walsh moved to deny the petition to require mandatory carrying of bear spray by hunters, trappers, outfitters and guides in grizzly bear habitat; the motion was seconded. 2:31:42
- Passed Voice vote on the motion to deny the petition requiring hunters, trappers, outfitters and guides to carry bear spray in grizzly bear habitat. “Motion carries” 3:16:29
Summary
Staff member Jeff Hindoien explained that the citizen petition asks the Commission to adopt a rule requiring anyone who hunts or traps in grizzly bear habitat, or who accompanies a hunter there as an outfitter or guide, to carry bear spray and keep it reasonably accessible. 2:14:25
Jeff Hindoien (staff) As you just mentioned, 60-day process, typically by which a written decision at the end of that process needs to be issued and based on the information submitted to the agency, including in this instance the comment that you solicited in writing and in here today at the meeting. This particular petition requests the adoption of a rule that would require require any person who hunts, traps, or accompanies a hunter as an outfitter or guide in grizzly bear habitat to carry bear spray and have it be reasonably accessible.
Jeff Hindoien said the Commission's authority to adopt this requirement is less clear than for trap-check rules, because the comparable hunter orange requirement was set by the legislature. 2:17:27
Jeff Hindoien (staff) So all kind of a typical fashion of my— Just long-winded way of saying The space here for doing— to adopting this type of requirement isn't as clear as it is with respect to the last one, but that's the space to navigate through for the Commission. Again, happy to answer any questions, but that's the process piece on this one.
A petitioner argued that hunting and trapping in grizzly habitat is especially risky and that hunter-grizzly incidents have increased, often involving people without accessible bear spray. 2:21:58
Public (voice W) Conflicts between hunters, trappers, Incidents involving hunters and grizzly bears have significantly increased in recent years in the northern Continental Divide ecosystem and the Montana portion of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. In many of these incidents, people engaged in hunting activity were not carrying bear spray or did not have it readily accessible. Hunting and trapping in grizzly bear habitat is inherently risky. Hunters often stalk quietly alone through thick brush and forest, often wear musk odors that mask human scent, and they're next to freshly killed animals that may attract bears. Trappers have caught many grizzly bears in their traps within Montana, and unknowingly approaching a trapped grizzly bear is very dangerous.
Asked whether bear spray would have prevented any documented grizzly deaths, staff said spray has ended conflicts but no analysis of that kind has been done. 2:30:04
Quentin (staff) Yeah, on this side, I'm sorry, Chair, Vice Chair, on this side, this is Quentin, just hearing the question, and it's, we can wonder what might otherwise have happened, but that's, I think, in this room as close as we can come thinking about Instances where bear spray have been deployed over the previous seasons and has been successful at ending the conflict. But what to think might have happened otherwise, you know, and when a firearm is in place, if that's— if we hear the question that way, Vice Chair, that's— we haven't, other than speculation we might do here in the moment, we haven't put an analysis together of the sort that I understand you're asking for. Vice Chair.
Walsh moved to deny the petition after saying FWP's hands-on bear spray education matters more than a carry requirement, and the motion was seconded. 2:31:42
Walsh To deny this petition, um, to require mandatory carrying of bear spray.
Several members of the public and organizations urged the Commission to rely on FWP's bear spray education rather than a mandate they saw as government overreach, while supporters compared the proposal to seat belt and hunter orange laws. 3:04:07
Public (voice AG) But, you know, I think as we've seen with the non-lead ammunition discussion, education can really move the needle on this without creating what is felt like an overstep by the government telling you what to do. So would really encourage the agency to continue what they're doing and lean in on education. It is incredibly helpful. It does move the needle significantly, and we would ask that you deny this petition. Thank you.
Wargo said that without enforceable penalties the requirement could lack teeth and that FWP's education is already working. 3:11:36
Wargo But I I do. I do have concerns mostly from an unintended consequence standpoint that I think you very rarely see a decrease in utilization if made mandatory without an actual penalty. So thank you.
The motion to deny the petition carried on a voice vote. 3:16:29
Robinson All opposed, same sign. Motion carries. Does anyone need a break before we go into the next?
Points made 28
- Jeff Hindoien explained that the petition, filed under the Montana Administrative Procedure Act's 60-day citizen petition process, asks the Commission to adopt a rule requiring anyone who hunts or traps in grizzly bear habitat, or who accompanies a hunter there as an outfitter or guide, to carry bear spray and keep it reasonably accessible. 2:14:25
- Jeff Hindoien said the Commission would not set the petition's requested penalties by rule, because the legislature has already provided a residual penalty for violating Commission rules. 2:15:44
- Jeff Hindoien said the Commission's authority to adopt this requirement is less clear than for trap-check rules: the comparable hunter orange requirement was set by the legislature, and the legislature has been specific about the Commission's role on hunting equipment. 2:17:27
- Jeff Hindoien noted that the department had denied a nearly identical petition, mainly because the department's authority covers game management rather than the hunting, fishing and trapping rules assigned to the Commission. 2:17:58
- A petitioner argued that hunting and trapping in grizzly habitat is especially risky because hunters move quietly and alone, use scents that mask human odor, and work near carcasses, and because baited traps can draw bears from far away; the petitioner added that hunter-grizzly incidents have increased and that many of the people involved lacked accessible bear spray. 2:21:58
- Petitioners and other members of the public pointed out that FWP and federal agencies recommend bear spray, and quoted an interagency brochure saying spray needs less accuracy than bullets, has never caused a fatality, and leaves the bear alive. 2:23:19
- Several members of the public, including petitioners, cited studies finding that bear spray stopped undesirable bear behavior in roughly 90 to 98 percent of cases and that most users in close encounters escaped uninjured. 2:48:07
- A petitioner said defense-of-life grizzly killings have risen sharply, increasing sevenfold in the Northern Continental Divide Ecosystem according to FWP data, and cited a November 2025 case near Seeley Lake in which hunters without bear spray shot a female grizzly and two cubs. 3:08:22
- A petitioner said the petition does not single out hunters and trappers unfairly, because those activities carry higher risk and fall within the Commission's authority, and added that everyone in grizzly habitat should carry bear spray. 2:24:34
- Walsh asked whether any documented grizzly deaths would have been prevented by bear spray; Robinson answered that none have been documented, and staff member Quentin said spray has ended conflicts successfully but that no analysis of the kind requested has been done. 2:30:04
- Walsh observed that the hunters in recent grizzly attacks had all been carrying bear spray. 2:29:50
- Walsh said FWP's hands-on bear spray education is more important than a carry requirement, noting that spray expires and a person could be carrying an ineffective canister. 2:31:12
- Lane said the federal agencies and FWP recommend bear spray but none require it, that carrying it should be the individual's choice, and that government mandates rarely turn out well. 2:32:07
- Several members of the public answered the objection to government mandates by comparing the proposal to seat belt, hunter orange and hot-car laws. 3:02:19
- A representative of the Montana Trappers Association, who said he supports and uses bear spray, reported that he could find no case in which bear spray would have prevented a trapping-related grizzly death. 2:35:38
- A representative of a sportsmen's group said no state mandates bear spray and that the petition targets hunters and trappers while ignoring other land users; he cited fatal attacks in Glacier and Banff where emptied spray canisters were found as evidence that spray can fail. 2:37:58
- Several members of the public, including a backcountry recreationist and a wildlife federation representative, said any requirement should apply to all backcountry users rather than to hunters and trappers alone. 2:40:34
- A representative of an outfitters and guides association said outfitters already carry bear spray and brief their clients on it; he objected that the proposed penalty language would hold licensed outfitters liable for clients' conduct, calling this unprecedented vicarious liability that raises due process concerns. 2:46:56
- A member of the public, a teacher, responded that licensed professionals taking people into the field are responsible for those people's actions, and asked why anyone would oppose carrying spray when most hunters already do. 2:57:10
- A member of the public opposed adding another piece of mandated gear for hunters, and said that in Region 1 the entire area is grizzly habitat because bears are moving beyond the recovery areas. 2:45:40
- A longtime hunter education instructor said his courses promote bear spray, but that he is allergic to it and that its effective range falls short of 20 yards. 2:52:46
- Several members of the public and organizations urged the Commission to rely on FWP's bear spray education, which they credited with real progress, rather than a mandate seen as government overreach. 3:04:07
- A wildlife federation representative questioned whether the requirement could be adopted without legislation, and suggested the department analyze bear encounters and present the findings publicly to guide future education. 2:51:15
- A member of the public said the growing number of out-of-state hunters, who may not know bear safety the way Montanans do, is a reason to address the issue. 2:54:32
- A carnivore conflict specialist asked the Commission either to enact the requirement directly or to begin the formal rulemaking process, arguing the Commission has authority under Section 87-1-130. 3:04:50
- A petitioner said the rule would give game wardens a tool to deal with the small minority of hunters and trappers who do not carry spray, despite FWP's good training. 3:09:27
- Wargo said that without enforceable penalties the requirement could lack teeth, noted that states making harvest surveys mandatory without enforcement saw compliance fall, and said FWP's education is already working. 3:11:36
- A petitioner said that without spray a person facing a grizzly has only a weapon to rely on, and explained that other users were left out of the petition because of doubts about the Commission's authority over them, not because petitioners disagree that everyone should carry spray. 3:14:16
Transcript 181 passages
On the agenda Passed
Initiation of Administrative Rulemaking Process – Predator Management Policy
3:23:22–4:36:12
What was decided
- Motion Wargo moved that the Commission authorize FWP staff to prepare a draft MAPA rule notice for a predator management policy for consideration at a future meeting, following the direction given in the discussion and in the supplemental document 'Development of a Predator Management Policy'; the motion was seconded. 3:56:55
- Passed Vote on the motion authorizing staff to prepare a draft MAPA rule notice for a predator management policy. “Motion carries” 4:35:42
Summary
Staff introduced the item as a front-end discussion for the Commission to give guidance on whether, and how, staff should develop a predator management policy, building on earlier talk of ungulate districts of concern during season setting. 3:24:01
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Tried to get that addressed in the P&I sheet, but really what the intention of this agenda item is, at least from the department staff perspective, was to have an opportunity for you as a commission in a meeting to ideally, hopefully provide us a little guidance to help you to the extent that's the direction the commission wants to go in the development of, of a predator management policy, for lack of a better term.
Wargo proposed an intentional predator management framework, coordinated across species, aimed at a healthy predator-prey ratio tied to measurable biological objectives rather than simply fewer predators. 3:31:21
Wargo You know, conversely though, I think in that, in that framework, I'm also opening the, the door to, you know, really, um, you know, to that intentional management, uh, to where if there is, um, you know, indication where where that predation is compensatory and, you know, isn't additive in nature, that, you know, maybe there would be a little bit more tolerance on the landscape for some of the large carnivores. So anyway, you know, the goal isn't simply fewer predators. It's just that healthy sustainable predator-prey ratio, you know, tied to, you know, measurable biological Objectives is kind of my my thought there.
Burrows argued for a plan modeled on the mule deer management plan, in which long-term averages and metrics would trigger set management levers that later revert, so that quota setting is predictable rather than arbitrary. 3:34:10
Burrows And having that, that for the commission, for the public, for the department to have that predictability on when we see a metric being hit or a long-term average or an objective not being met, we pull a lever for a certain period of time and then it just reverts back once we hit that metric again. And I think it would get rid of some of the, what some consider the arbitrariness of Walking into a season setting meeting and saying, "Do we want? I propose 60 wolves in this region. Why one 58? Why one 62?" All right, let's settle on 59 and a half wolves then in this region.
Wargo moved that the Commission authorize staff to prepare a draft MAPA rule notice for a predator management policy for consideration at a future meeting, following the discussion and his supplemental document 'Development of a Predator Management Policy', and the motion was seconded. 3:56:55
Wargo Yeah, Chair, would you entertain a motion, please? Okay, thanks. And, uh, Jesse, I did just, uh, hit an email on, on this language for you. So, uh, I move the Fish and Wildlife Commission authorize FWP staff to prepare a draft MAPA rule notice for predator management policy for the commission's consideration at a future meeting in accordance with the direction outlined in this discussion, in addition to the direction provided in the supplemental document entitled Development of a predator management policy.
Several members of the public opposed the proposal or asked for it to be withdrawn, saying it was rushed and late-posted, lacked clarity, and was aimed at killing more large carnivores. 4:03:51
Public (voice F) These concerns become even more significant when we combine the continuing surrounding Montana wolf population estimates and the transitioning to the IPOM 2.0. This is simply too important to rush. We ask respectfully that the department and the commission withdraw this proposal for now, address the unanswered questions and policy questions involving a broad range of stakeholders and independent scientists, and then bring it back through And we'll have a look at it and we'll decide then. Wolves of the Rockies is— I want to get this straight— Wolves of the Rockies is for bear chase hunting of ungulates.
Other members of the public supported moving forward, calling it a science-based start to a public process that would require biological evidence before action. 4:13:15
Public (voice H) Predator management in the Northern Rockies has been heavily litigated, and a durable policy framework protects the Commission's ability to act. We ask for a do pass. Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the Commission.
Asked about concerns that the process was rushed, staff said there was probably no legal obligation to take comment at this stage and that there would be multiple further comment opportunities on a more detailed draft. 4:32:04
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Madam Chair, Vice Chair Walsh, it may, may not take that long, but you're certainly entering a process because we'll have multiple opportunities opportunities for public comment on the substance concept at a much greater level of detail than what's out there today. I mean, strictly speaking, from a technical standpoint, there probably wasn't a legal obligation to solicit public comment on this because it's not a final agency action. It's 2 or 3 or 4 steps removed from the point in time When the public is actually commenting on something that you as a commission or an agency for purposes of MAPA would be taking action on as a final action.
The motion authorizing staff to prepare a draft MAPA rule notice for a predator management policy carried on a voice vote, with no count stated. 4:35:42
Robinson All right, same sign. Okay, motion carries. Only thing left we have on the agenda is public comment on items not on the agenda. A reminder that do not repeat what we've already discussed today, and this is a special meeting. We'll be meeting again, going to take 1-minute comments It's on the items not on the agenda. So, see, change the timer to 1 minute, please.
Points made 36
- Staff explained that the item was meant as a front-end discussion so the Commission could give guidance on whether, and how, staff should develop a predator management policy, building on earlier Commission talk of ungulate districts of concern during big game, lion and bear season setting. 3:24:01
- Staff said they would focus on the functionality the Commission wants rather than exact wording, then write it into policy and administrative rule format for a second conversation. 3:28:09
- Wargo said he wants an intentional, non-arbitrary and non-uniform predator management framework, coordinated across species, for areas where ungulates are struggling, habitat could support more animals, and predation is likely adding to mortality. 3:30:38
- Wargo said the framework should also allow more tolerance for large carnivores where predation is compensatory, with the goal of a healthy predator-prey ratio tied to measurable biological objectives rather than simply fewer predators. 3:31:21
- Burrows argued for a plan modeled on the mule deer management plan, using long-term averages and metrics that trigger set management levers and then revert, to give the public and Commission predictability and avoid arbitrary quota setting. 3:34:10
- A Member asked for a balanced approach that looks at the impact of one species on another across all species on the landscape, rather than one species at a time in season setting. 3:35:03
- Brooke said season setting is currently rushed, based on limited data and increasingly polarized, and that better population data would make decisions easier to make and to explain to the public; Lane agreed. 3:36:54
- Lane raised concern about coyote impacts on deer and antelope and said measuring coyote populations would be difficult. 3:37:35
- Asked whether coyotes, over which the Commission lacks authority, could be included, staff said coyotes already have an unlimited season, the department has used aerial removal by staff or contractors where fawn ratios are low, and the Commission could ask the department to pursue such efforts, subject to funding, contracts and landowner arrangements. 3:41:21
- Lane said coyotes need to be incorporated in some way in ungulate areas of concern even though they are outside the Commission's current purview. 3:42:04
- Wargo said existing long-term data such as calf and fawn recruitment could be leveraged for measurable metrics at a later drafting stage. 3:42:35
- Burrows said the policy should also account for social and economic factors, citing a wolf quota in districts 313 and 316 cut from 3 to 1 without biological justification, and should not box the Commission into decisions it does not want. 3:44:50
- Robinson said she would not support a policy that ties the Commission's hands, since it must weigh public comment and social factors alongside any metrics. 3:45:27
- Staff said the discussion already gave enough direction to return with a more refined draft product at a future meeting for further public review and editing. 3:47:05
- Brooke asked that the data brought to the Commission include non-predator causes of population decline, such as disease, habitat change and drought. 3:49:08
- A Member also asked for information on all influences, citing rabbit population cycles affecting bobcat season setting in Region 5. 3:53:00
- In response to Lane's question, staff confirmed the action only authorizes staff to prepare a draft, a front-end step ahead of a formal rulemaking process with further public comment and Commission amendment. 3:51:57
- Asked whether a draft rule notice is the same as a draft policy, staff explained the rule notice is the vehicle and its content would be a first draft of the Commission's predator management policy language. 3:56:28
- Members of the public, including one from Footloose Montana and one from Hughson, objected that the item was posted late, that comment registration was restricted, and that the proposal's intent was unclear, undermining a transparent process. 4:22:15
- A member of the public from Footloose Montana opposed the proposal as treating large carnivores as a problem to be eliminated to produce more elk and mule deer for trophy hunters. 4:01:49
- A member of the public from Wolves of the Rockies asked that the proposal be withdrawn for now, saying it was rushed only six days after comment closed and raised questions given uncertainty in wolf population estimates and the move to a new estimation model. 4:03:51
- A member of the public from the Montana Wildlife Federation asked the Commission to hold off for more clarity, opposed managing one species based heavily on another's objectives, and suggested species-specific adaptive carnivore plans with regional population objectives. 4:05:26
- A supporting member of the public said moving forward would start a public process, elevate large carnivores biologically, and bring more information such as drought and disease into decisions. 4:08:07
- A member of the public from Trap Free Montana called the policy politically driven, said lion and wolf numbers have already dropped substantially, and said habitat is the main cause of low ungulate numbers. 4:09:38
- A member of the public from Montana Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife supported a science-based adaptive plan to reduce polarized debates, saying predators severely depress herds in some areas. 4:11:55
- A member of the public from the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association supported the proposal as a conservation policy requiring biological evidence before action and said a formal rulemaking record would strengthen the legal defensibility of decisions. 4:13:15
- A member of the public from the Montana Trappers Association supported continuing forward, noting the idea had been raised at several prior meetings. 4:17:12
- A member of the public argued the Commission's statutory mandate does not mention predator management and that carnivore-ungulate relationships involve many factors, so killing carnivores rarely achieves long-term goals. 4:14:19
- A member of the public urged that any expansion of lethal take require a documented species-specific conservation need based on population, conflict, reproduction and cumulative mortality data. 4:18:06
- A member of the public from Wolf and Wildlife Advocates said many herds, such as one in Region 2, are above objective for non-predator reasons, and asked that the policy require identifying the herd, its limiting factor, justification for each predator species, and stopping actions that fail. 4:24:59
- A member of the public opposed wolf hunting, citing wolves' roles in ecosystem health and disease control, ecotourism value, and livestock losses under 1 percent. 4:26:36
- A member of the public thanked Members for requesting measurable data and considering non-predator causes of death, and shared a recording of students who want wolves, bears and lions on the landscape. 4:20:42
- Robinson said management does not necessarily mean killing more predators but targeting areas of concern. 4:29:31
- Asked about public participation and whether the policy's name would be reconsidered, staff said the draft would be open to change from top to bottom and would return at least twice more with public comment opportunities. 4:30:37
- Asked by Walsh about concerns the process was rushed, staff said there was likely no legal obligation to take comment at this stage and there would be multiple future comment opportunities, though the process may not take 18 to 24 months. 4:32:04
- Burrows suggested the policy name could change and said opponents both opposed the policy and called for science-based metrics, arguing that starting early gives the public a chance to shape the policy from the ground floor. 4:33:52
Transcript 227 passages
Raised by public
Late posting of meeting materials and Commission transparency
4:35:42–4:37:37
Summary
During public comment on items not on the agenda, a member of the public representing a wildlife advocacy group raised concerns about the Commission's transparency in releasing proposal information. 4:36:32
Public (voice AC) You got me. Thank you very much, Chair, Commissioners, Kim Bean, Wolf and Wildlife Advocates. My main comment is the fact that the frustration you hear, Commissioner, is the fact that we get a PI the day before comment closing, and that is a frustration because there's an expectation that we understand what you're thinking and what you want. This is an issue. This is a transparency issue. It's a question in ethics. It's a question in numerous problems that we have. Communication's a very big thing.
The commenter said the public receives proposal information the day before comment closes yet is expected to understand what the Commission is thinking, calling this a transparency and ethics issue. 4:36:32
Public (voice AC) You got me. Thank you very much, Chair, Commissioners, Kim Bean, Wolf and Wildlife Advocates. My main comment is the fact that the frustration you hear, Commissioner, is the fact that we get a PI the day before comment closing, and that is a frustration because there's an expectation that we understand what you're thinking and what you want. This is an issue. This is a transparency issue. It's a question in ethics. It's a question in numerous problems that we have. Communication's a very big thing.
The commenter added that the Commission's transparency is lacking and the public does not see its actions until it is too late, which drives frustration even among commenters who agree with some of the Commission's decisions. 4:37:11
Public (voice AC) Understanding what your objective is, and we hear your objectives a lot, and the objective's usually killing. And so there's frustration. And it's not that we don't agree with certain things, because I think you heard today that some of us do agree. But your transparency is lacking, and the frustration lies with that. So once again, when we don't see your actions until it's too late, there's a problem.
Points made 2
- A member of the public representing a wildlife advocacy group said the public receives proposal information the day before comment closes yet is expected to understand the Commission's thinking, calling this a transparency and ethics issue. 4:36:32
- The same commenter said the Commission's transparency is lacking and the public does not see its actions until it is too late, which drives public frustration even where some commenters agree with the Commission. 4:37:11
Transcript 6 passages
Raised by public
Consideration of non-game species in wildlife management
4:37:38–4:38:49
Summary
During public comment, a member of the public pointed out that rabbits, like many Montana species, are classified as non-game and so receive no state or federal protection, meaning they can be killed year-round, unreported and in unlimited numbers, and argued that wildlife discussions should not be limited to big game and predators such as elk, deer, moose, bears and wolves. 4:37:44
Public (voice S) Madam Chair, Commissioners, real quick, I just wanted to bring up something mentioned about rabbits and bobcat. Again, rabbits are considered non-game, and as non-game, they receive no state or federal protection or regulations. So rabbits can be killed, like many species in Montana, year-round, unreported, unlimited. So when we're talking about wildlife, Yeah. We can't just talk about big game and Um, you know, prey game species, elk, deer, moose, etc., bear, wolves.
The same speaker said most of Montana's wildlife is non-game and overlooked despite its ecological role, urged the Commission to address all wildlife as part of its role, and expressed hope that the name and the planning would be changed to reflect this. 4:38:22
Public (voice S) You have to remember the majority of the wildlife in Montana is classified as non-game, and they're forgotten, and they have a role, and they have an impact. So when we're— Hopefully you will change the name and you will change the planning that seems very clear. Um, I won't— sorry, I'm going back onto that. But let's start addressing all the wildlife, please. That's your role, and thank you.
Points made 4
- A member of the public noted that rabbits are classified as non-game in Montana and so receive no state or federal protection or regulation, meaning they can be killed year-round, unreported and in unlimited numbers. 4:37:44
- A member of the public argued that wildlife discussions should not be limited to big game and predator species such as elk, deer, moose, bear and wolves. 4:37:44
- A member of the public stated that the majority of Montana's wildlife is classified as non-game and is overlooked despite having an ecological role and impact, and urged the Commission to address all wildlife as part of its role. 4:38:22
- A member of the public expressed hope that the Commission would change the name and the planning to reflect all wildlife. 4:38:22
Transcript 3 passages
Raised by public
Comprehensive ecosystem and wildlife health framework
4:38:50–4:40:15
Summary
During public comment, a member of the public asked why the Commission is not interested in developing a more comprehensive wildlife policy, such as an ecosystem and wildlife health framework, given the threats of climate change and accelerating species extinctions. 4:39:07
Public (voice Q) Yes, thank you. So, um, I don't understand why this Commission is not interested in, in developing a more comprehensive wildlife policy, um, given the threats of, of climate change and accelerating species extinction— extinctions. Why not develop a comprehensive ecosystem and wildlife health framework? Why the focus, the relentless focus on killing predators?
The same commenter criticized what they called the Commission's relentless focus on killing predators, arguing that although it had been said that management does not mean more killing, with this Commission it does. 4:39:45
Public (voice Q) And, you know, Leslie, you noted that management doesn't mean more killing, but with this commission, it does. Can I still speak, or am I done?
The comment was cut off when the speaker's time ran out, and no action was taken on the Matter. 4:40:06
Robinson Well, your time's not up yet, but up now. It is now.
Points made 3
- A member of the public asked why the Commission is not interested in developing a more comprehensive wildlife policy, such as an ecosystem and wildlife health framework, given the threats of climate change and accelerating species extinctions. 4:39:07
- A member of the public criticized what they called the Commission's relentless focus on killing predators. 4:39:07
- A member of the public argued that although it had been said that management does not mean more killing, with this Commission it does. 4:39:45
Transcript 5 passages
Full transcript
Robinson Commissioner Gagnon, you want to do a sound check? Let's just make sure everybody's okay. Good afternoon, Chair Robinson. Can you hear me okay? I can, perfect. How about Commissioner Wargo?
Wargo Yeah, can you hear me?
Robinson Yep, perfect.
Wargo Perfect, thanks.
Robinson Commissioner Burrows?
Burrows I'm here. Can you hear me?
Robinson Yes, we can. Yep. Commissioner Lane?
Public (voice D) Loud and clear.
Robinson Okay, perfect. Commissioner Brooke. Commissioner Brooke. Oh, okay, now I hear you.
Robin Bartsch (staff) Can you hear me?
Public (voice F) Yeah.
Robinson Okay, and then Vice Chair, yep, do you want to go ahead and try?
Walsh Yep, test.
Robinson Perfect. Start in just a few minutes.
Public (voice H) Can you include his name?
Lane Was that—.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Okay, he's— no, he told me. We can get there with that in questions.
Robinson So just— Okay, perfect.
Robin Bartsch (staff) Yeah.
Robinson Okay, do you want me to set it behind them? So it's in the background?
Quentin (staff) Yeah, I said I got it.
Robinson Yeah, he's online now. Watch out, Quentin. Sorry, I, I think maybe just not get stabbed by Perfect. All right, I'm gonna call the meeting to order.
Robinson If everyone— if everyone could stand, and we will do the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you, everyone.
Informational Update – Licensing Report
Robinson Okay, we're gonna start the meeting with a licensing update from Emily Cooper, and this will not have public comment, but the commissioners will be able to ask Emily questions, however you want to do it, Emily, throughout the presentation if they come up. Probably if you guys could raise your hands, can you? Is there someone that can tell Emily if the hand is raised? Jesse can see. Okay, perfect. Okay, let's go ahead. Thank you.
Emily Cooper (staff) Okay, thanks everybody. I'm Emily Cooper. I'm the licensing chief here with FWP. I brought some of my staff with me today to help with the presentation.
Evan Klein (staff) I'm Evan Klein, licensing business analyst.
Robin Bartsch (staff) And I'm Robin Bartsch, the Licensing Operations Manager.
Emily Cooper (staff) So this is a presentation you guys have seen a couple of times. This one is for our licensing trends here in Montana. We're going to give you a lot of information pretty quickly. It should take about 10 to 15 minutes. Typically, it works the best if we go through the presentation and we save the questions till the end. So we put numbers on all these slides. So take down your number, and then we'll go take down the slide number, and then we'll go back. And answer those questions as it goes. So we're going to start with adjusting license numbers, license and permit numbers.
Emily Cooper (staff) We use population management tools here at FWP, including population size, age structure, and male-to-female ratios with a couple of different tools, hunter numbers, method of harvest, season length and timing, bag limits, and access. So for population management, we have 2 options here. A licenses, which are antlered or either sex licenses. We use these primarily to target antlered animals, manage population age structures to the male ratios. These don't significantly affect the population trajectories. And on the other, the other option we have is B licenses. These are specifically to manage population trends. So we'll talk about licensing just real quick as an overview.
Emily Cooper (staff) We're going to start at the real basic level, license versus permit. A license provides the opportunity for that license holder to harvest and possess the carcass of an animal. A permit is used in conjunction with a license. It expands or restricts that license opportunity, but it's not an additional opportunity. You can have a license without a permit, but you cannot have a permit without a license. So today's presentation is going to mainly focus on deer and elk information. So this one specifically for residents, these A licenses are either sex ones or antlered ones are available over the counter. They're not limited by quota. These are our general licenses that we can buy anytime as a resident.
Emily Cooper (staff) For those B licenses, some of those deer B and elk B are limited through quota and issued through a drawing, and some of them are not. They're available over the counter. As far as non-residents go, those general licenses are issued by a drawing and are limited by statutory quotas. For B licenses, again, some of the deer B and elk B are issued through a drawing while others are available over the counter. These licenses are limited to that maximum of 10% of that license quota. So, general— these nonresident A general licenses are packaged in 4 ways and valid statewide.
Emily Cooper (staff) Your big game combination license is your general elk, general deer, upland game bird, and your season fishing together as a package. Elk is specifically just for your elk general. Deer is for your deer general. And then there's the landowner-sponsored deer. These ones are for non-resident hunters sponsored by a resident landowner, and these licenses are only valid on that resident landowner's property. So we're going to talk about these, particularly licenses are statutorily limited. The big game and elk combination licenses have a combined quota of 17,000. Both those 2 combos come out of the same bucket as far as quota goes.
Emily Cooper (staff) Your deer combination license base quota is 4,600 and your landowner-sponsored deer combination is 2,000. There's one more set of nonresident licenses, the Come Home to Hunt license, that are also limited in statute by 500 quota for each specific type. These do go through a drawing if there's more than that quota. So far that hasn't happened yet, but it, it does. So complicated when we talk about the nonresident deer combination license. So we kind of laid it out for you. The base quota for a deer combo is 4,600, as I said, set in statute. But during the drawing, additional deer licenses are added to that base quota from a couple different sources.
Emily Cooper (staff) From the landowner-sponsored deer combo, any unclaimed landowner-sponsored deer licenses are added into the deer combination license quota. So if we had a quota of 2,000 and only 1,000 people got one, then we take that extra 1,000 and put it in the base license for that deer quota. And then from the elk combination license from that big game combo, each elk combination license that's created, a general deer license is separated from that big game combo, which we refer to as an orphan deer, and added to the deer combo. So as far as this presentation goes, mostly it's limited to license year '25. However, this is license year '26. This is real numbers from our, our big game drawing for non-residents.
Emily Cooper (staff) This will show you exactly out of the 17,000 pool, 11,989 were general big game license or big game combos. 5,011 Were elk combos. And so, per your direction, we cut that 5,011 by 2, which ended up being 2,505. The landowner-sponsored deer combo, that quota was 2,000. We issued 878, so 1,122 of those licenses went into that quota. So when we started the 26th drawing this year, we started with 4,600.
Emily Cooper (staff) The statute says Then we added that 1,122 of unclaimed landowner sponsored, and then the 2,505 of the orphan deer for a starting total of 8,226. This number is different every time we do the drawing, so it— because of the, the nature of our drawings. So there are a couple statutory and administrative rule license restrictions for non-residents. Montana Code says we restrict big game licenses and permits for non-residents to no more than 10%. So they can have no more than 10%, a maximum of, but not a guarantee of 10%.
Emily Cooper (staff) Administrative rule goes a little bit further, and it says that at least 90% of the available hunting licenses go to residents, and if and only if resident applications are fewer than that 90%, Every resident gets one, and then any remaining licenses after that can be awarded to non-residents, even if it exceeds that 10%. So here's a couple of examples here. Our drawing statistic reports are all available online. So people, if you know what you're looking for, you know where to get it. Sometimes we get some questions on why non-residents get more than that 10% that we just talked about. So I put together a couple scenarios to give you examples of how this might happen. So in this example 1, we have a quota of 100.
Emily Cooper (staff) We had 150 people apply. We set those quota limits, as you can see in that bar underneath there. Residents can get all 100 of those, but non-residents can only get 10. We did the drawing here and it shook out as the residents got 93% of those licenses while the non-residents got 7. In our next example, we have a quota of 50. We had magically the same amount of applicants. However, the, the residents applicants were less than 90% of those applicants. So in this particular scenario, the residents all got one because the quota was 50. So all 30 of those folks got it at 60%, which left some available for non-residents. That's over 10%.
Emily Cooper (staff) So you're gonna see in this example that the residents got 40% of that. But they were allowed to do that because Montana administrative rule says that in this particular scenario, all the residents got one. So there were others available for non-residents. And then the 3rd example I'll show you, this one in particular, we have more licenses than we have applicants. So we, in this particular example, we have a quota of 150, but only 100 applicants. So we have some extra. So everybody that applied got one. And then we take those extra 50 and we send them to surplus. So that's after the drawing, they're sold over the counter. And you can see in this particular example, they've already been subjected to that 10% restriction rule.
Emily Cooper (staff) So for surplus licenses, they don't have to be restricted again. Those are available for anybody regardless of residency. We have some nonresident licenses that are not limited in statute. Deer and elk, for, for those who have the non-resident relative of a resident license, that's for those folks that were born in Montana and no longer live here. College student licenses, those are really specific sets of rules on college students and reciprocity and whether their home state offers things to resident students, Montana students in their home state, and then youth licenses for deer and elk.
Emily Cooper (staff) For birds, upland game bird, migratory birds, and turkeys, none of those are limited. Amounts in statute. We have 5 unlimited bighorn sheep opportunities that are available, and then other things, licenses like black bear, mountain lion, and wolf, none of those are limited, have a, have a 10% restriction on that non-residents. We noted a couple statutory changes to licensing. This isn't all of them, just a couple that we wanted to call out in the presentation. So I-161 We eliminated that outfitter-sponsored license that passed in 2010.
Emily Cooper (staff) And that outfitter-sponsored was a variable price license and it restricted nonresident license holders to hunt only with an outfitter on lands designated in their operations plan on file with the Board of Outfitters. So that no longer exists. Back in 2015, we had House Bill 140 that created our base hunting license. Standardize those license fees and discounts because they were all over the map, and then reduce the number of free licenses. Senate Bill 281 in 2023, that limited the number of DRB licenses available to non-residents.
Emily Cooper (staff) So prior to this, they could hold 8, but this piece of legislation restricted it to 2 if a non-resident has a combination license and only 1 if they do not. And then just a, a note for House Bill 568. This came out of the 2025 legislative session. This is the Montana Hunters First Act. This is a study bill that requires FWP to analyze the impacts of hunting pressure and nonresident participation on public lands. With the report on that is on track to be published by December 1st, 2026. This bill does not make any immediate changes to regulations. It's just a study bill to give us some information. A couple notable Commission actions.
Emily Cooper (staff) Also in license year '24, the mule deer B licenses for does in Region 6 and 7 and parts of Region 4 are for private land only. First and only opportunities no longer offers a surplus license or permit. Elk permits and either sex of brow tine bull permits restricted antlered elk hunting to permitted districts only. Then recently this year, the nonresident combination license, the commission reduced the number of available general deer licenses created by those elk combos. This is that orphan deer that we refer to. We reduced the maximum deer license per resident from 8 to 3.
Emily Cooper (staff) And in Region 1 Elk B license restriction, all Region 1 Elk B licenses are valid on private land only. So we'll take a real, a quick second to see what those privileges are for license packages. For resident sportsmen without bear, we're paying $64.50. A non-resident for the same privileges is paying $1,312. For a deer B license, the resident price is $10, non-resident $75. Elk B resident is $20 and the non-resident is $270. So look at the entire package.
Emily Cooper (staff) This is all hunting license revenue that residents bring in 24% of that revenue and non-residents 76% of that revenue for overall hunting licenses. Specific to deer and elk license revenue, that split is 80% for residents, or sorry, 80% for non-residents and 20% for residents.
Evan Klein (staff) All right, I will talk about some license sales numbers here. So here we have just the total number of issued hunting licenses from 2016 to 2025. Non-residents are represented in orange and residents are in blue. As you can see, the number of licenses is trending up with an extra 86,000 264 nonresident licenses and 22,866 for residents. For general deer, we see increases over the same period.
Evan Klein (staff) Numbers have increased slightly for residents and nonresidents for a total increase of 2,027, and the 2025 total was 188,000. For general elk, Over the same 10-year period, most of the increase here is on the resident side with an extra 8,695 resident general elk licenses compared to just a 208 increase for non-residents. Deer B licenses, we see a large spike in 2020 and 2021.
Evan Klein (staff) Overall, that has started to decrease, but we're still Above 2016 by 5,127 resident deer B licenses and 718 nonresident deer B licenses.
Public (voice O) All right.
Evan Klein (staff) For elk B sales, resident sales have increased by 3,697. Nonresident sales have more than doubled. They've increased by 2,585 for that same time period. And the total sales for 2025 was just over 34,000. Upland birds, similar trend, license sales increasing. Most of the increase here coming from residents with an additional 19,272 licenses, while non-residents have increased by 4,698. So these charts here just show the distribution of how many Licenses deer hunters and elk hunters hold.
Evan Klein (staff) So the first chart includes residents and non-residents and shows the vast majority of deer hunters hold just one license across all years. There was a slight peak of multi-licensed deer hunters between 2019 to 2022. And then the second chart shows the same for elk. Most elk hunters hold just one license, some with 2, and very few with So these 2 graphs show the percent of hunters in 2025 specifically, that's deer and elk hunters that held just deer licenses, just elk licenses, or held licenses for both species.
Evan Klein (staff) So on the left we have residents, and 81% of resident deer and elk hunters held licenses for both species, 15% held only deer licenses, and 4% only elk licenses. On the right, for non-residents, it was more evenly split with 36% having licenses for both species, 43% having only deer licenses, and 21% having only elk licenses. This graph shows non-residents who purchased only a B license and no other deer or elk license. So the number of these individuals is increasing as well.
Evan Klein (staff) Non-residents Purchasing elk B only have increased by 1,870 since 2016, and non-residents purchasing deer B only have increased by 891. You'll see that the elk B is increasing in recent years and deer B is decreasing.
Robin Bartsch (staff) All right, now we talked about license and revenue. Now let's see where they're hunting and how long. So specifically, this is the statewide active deer hunter estimates from 2015 to 2025. This is an estimate that we do from a random sample from our hunter harvest survey. You can see residents have decreased since 2015, where we do have a slight increase of non-residents since 2015. Same here, this is a statewide active elk hunter numbers from 2015 to 2025. Once again, we do see a decrease in residents by about 4,000, an increase in non-residents about 1,600.
Robin Bartsch (staff) It is important to note typically this survey is done on an every other year basis for deer and elk. Now let's look at hunter location in days. So this is a map of our state here that's broken into our 7 hunting regions. This is the deer hunter distribution specifically by region. We can see our greatest decrease from 2013 to 2025 is in Region 1 and in Region 5. And our greatest increase is in Region 3 and Region 2. Also want to note non-residents are in orange and residents are in blue for all of these graphs. This is the elk hunter distribution by region from 2014 to 2024.
Robin Bartsch (staff) We do see a decrease from Region 1 and Region 2, but we do see an increase in Region 3 and Region 5. This here is just a summary of the last 2 slides and bar graphs. With our greatest increases and our greatest decreases. So we talked about region, now look at statewide. So statewide deer hunting days from 2004 to 2025. So it looks like residents are roughly spending about 140,000 more days in the field. And non-residents are spending roughly 37,000 more days in the field since 2004.
Robin Bartsch (staff) This is the same for statewide elk hunting days from 2004 to 2025. Once again, both residents and non-residents are spending more days in the field looking for their elk, with a combined total of roughly 150,000. So now this is deer hunter days broken up into the regions from 2013 to 2025. We can see that there is specifically more non-residents in Region 6 and Region 7 from 2013. However, we do see the residents are mostly stable. This is elk hunter days by region.
Robin Bartsch (staff) There's not a whole lot of major changes from 2012 to 2024, but we do see a slight increase specifically in Region 3 for both resident and non-resident elk hunters. This here is just a summary of our greatest increases and decreases from the last 2 slides. So let's talk about where they're hunting now. Block management is one of our widely recognized programs here at FWP. We do have some other access programs that people are using, but block management is one of our most popular. We do see block management from 2015 to 2025. Enrollment has declined about 7.5%.
Robin Bartsch (staff) However, hunter days are increasing by 75%. On the right here, you can see specifically the change in acreage from 2015 to 2025 broken out into region. You can see our greatest change in acreage is specifically in Region 7 for about 300,000 acres. This is block management acreage by region versus cooperators by region. So we do know we have the most acreage for block management in Region 7, which that's that dark blue line on the left-hand graph. We can see it has decreased from 2015 to 2025. However, on the right is our cooperators by region.
Robin Bartsch (staff) That green line on top is Region 6, so we do hold the most cooperators in Region 6. So this is block management residency of hunter days by region, specifically for 2025. So regions with the greatest nonresident hunting is Region 6 and Region 7. You can see Region 6 makes up 51% of the hunters are nonresident, and for Region 7, 41% of the hunters are nonresident. However, it is important to know that— Sorry, Overall, the entire state residents do still make up the majority of block management hunters as a total. So now we're just looking at an overall summary.
Robin Bartsch (staff) We have seen Montana hunting has changed over time. License sales and hunting effort has increased largely because of growth in nonresident participation, while resident hunter numbers and block management acres definitely have declined. So this is just a summary of some of the recent trends. We do see hunting license sales have increased, especially among non-residents. We also do see resident deer and elk hunter participation has declined, while non-resident has increased. Hunting activity has shifted from Region 3 toward Region 3 and Region 5. Total deer and elk hunting days have increased statewide for both residents and non-residents.
Robin Bartsch (staff) We also do see block management enrollment has declined, reducing available hunting access specifically for that program. So this is just some of our expected future trends. We do expect nonresident license revenue is expected to remain an important part of our total hunting license revenue, mostly for the demand of the combination licenses. We also do know hunter effort is expected to remain high. Even if resident participation continues to decline, because hunters are still spending more days in the field looking for their game. That concludes our presentation. Now, if anyone has any questions, we are accepting them, and feel free to let us go back to any slide and we can go over anything or explain anything that you guys want to go back to.
Robinson Vice Chair Walsh.
Walsh Hi, nice presentation. Thank you for doing this. The, I had a question about the nonresident sponsored tags and who applies for those. Does the landowner apply or the nonresident hunter?
Robin Bartsch (staff) Yeah, specifically to the nonresident landowner deer sponsor tags, the resident does apply for that specific program. And then once the resident has been approved, they give their certificate to their nonresident hunters. And then during the application window from March 1st to April 1st, the nonresident hunter applies for their license and then turns in the certificate to be approved. So it's kind of a both party there.
Walsh And a follow-up on that, what about the nonresident relative of a resident? Does the resident license But does the resident apply for that license for the nonresident relative?
Robin Bartsch (staff) Yes, specifically for the nonresident relative of a relative.
Public (voice P) Sorry, relative of a relative.
Robin Bartsch (staff) The nonresident applies for themselves and then they give us supplying documentation to prove the qualifying. So they have to supply a resident's driver's license, their birth certificate that they were born in Montana, and some specific information. So the nonresident applies for themselves.
Walsh And then how about the qualifications for the Come Home to Hunt license?
Robin Bartsch (staff) So the Come Home to Hunt is a little, is a little different because you don't have to be born in Montana. You have to either reside here and have a hunting license or, and taken Montana Hunter Safety. And the Come Home to Hunt is a little different because you have to be hunting in the field with your resident relative where the non-resident native You do not actually have to be in the field with the relative.
Walsh Okay, thank you.
Public (voice Q) Yep.
Emily Cooper (staff) Sure.
Public (voice R) Go ahead.
Public (voice S) Okay.
Robinson Sure. Okay, thank you. Um, the few things that I did not realize that the landowner sponsor tags, that anything unclaimed went into that pot, which I mean, it's over half of them that were unclaimed. And so instead of the 4,600, you end up with 8,226 total, which is not quite double, but it's getting close, close to double what was intended, I guess. And another thing too, can you— I don't know who can speak to this, but I found out this year that the surplus tags, we as a commission have no authority over that, but that is the authority of the director.
Public (voice Q) Director.
Robinson You want to hit on that a little bit, how you decide if the surplus tags should be released because it's not an automatic.
Emily Cooper (staff) Yeah, you bet. This is Emily. So we actually had legal do a review on those unclaimed landowner sponsor licenses to make sure that we were executing it correctly. And statute does actually outline that we can take those licenses that are unclaimed and add them to the general license pool. So we did look into that and that is, we're, we're above board on I'm not saying that you're above board on it.
Robinson I'm just—.
Emily Cooper (staff) Okay.
Robinson Saying that I wasn't aware of that. Okay, thanks.
Public (voice T) Yeah.
Emily Cooper (staff) And then as far as the surplus licenses go, that's an administrative rule that just says any licenses left over the drawing are distributed at the direction of our director. So the reason that we issue special or surplus licenses In a, a sign-up process. Is that what you're talking about, Chair?
Robinson Um, right, where they can sign up for surplus or whatever, but it's decided by the, by the director. It's not— should not be just automatically done. It should be like viewed every year to decide if they're released or not.
Public (voice U) Correct.
Emily Cooper (staff) Yes, yes. So when the drawing is over, uh, we actually send that information up to the director's office and have that conversation before we let those surplus licenses out. It's not an immediate situation. We have that drawing and then weeks later to months later we, we send out the available surplus licenses for sign up.
Robinson OK, one more thing. I didn't see any bird information on how the numbers have increased or decreased in the 10-year period or whatever, like you did with the, the big game. That would be interesting information also. And I think that's all I have.
Robin Bartsch (staff) Okay, we can definitely add that in the future.
Robinson Okay, thank you.
Emily Cooper (staff) On slide 28, Chair Robinson, we had the upland game bird license sales.
Robinson I want it by region is what I'm— Oh, gotcha.
Emily Cooper (staff) Yeah, gotcha. Yep, we can get that for you.
Robinson Okay, thank you. Commissioner Burrows. Commissioner Burrows.
Burrows Yeah, well done on the presentation. I think we could have a special meeting just to talk about this PowerPoint presentation that you gave us. That was a whirlwind of information, and I think some really important information to understand the dynamics of why we're hearing what we're hearing on the landscape when you see those resident and non-resident impacts that we have. But I wanted to follow up. The chair started to touch on it. The landowner-sponsored tags, when I read on the website just now, it looks like the intent of those, or what it says, was Montana landowners can sponsor nonresident deer hunters to hunt their deeded land.
Burrows I don't see the nexus to take a landowner-sponsored tag that was intended for them to hunt landowner-sponsored deeded land and then drop them into a pool where we now have block management and public land impacts from nonresidents. I think if I would have known that, we hopefully could add some more discussion about dropping those, and maybe it's a director decision, but I really hope that decision is considered seeing those impacts and hearing the fact that non-residents are hunting the eastern part of the state more and harvesting more mule deer.
Burrows So I, I hope we take a look at those orphan landowner-sponsored tags and not shift that impact to public lands where the intent looked to be hunting landowner-sponsored deeded land. The next question I had was the House Bill 568 and the survey.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) How—.
Burrows The first question I have is when you go to the FWP website and you click on the questionnaire, You land on a House Bill 536 questionnaire. Was— is there a tie between those 2 bills? I was just a little confused because I read the House Bill 568, and then you hit a House Bill 536 questionnaire on the website. Why is that?
Emily Cooper (staff) Commissioner Burrows, I think there's maybe just a disconnect there. There's no intention. I think that was just a mistake on our part. We'll look into it.
Public (voice N) Probably the table.
Emily Cooper (staff) Yeah.
Burrows Okay. Yeah, it did. It caused me kind of confusion because then I'm trying to find House Bill. But how could a, how could a resident or somebody filling that out, if you didn't read the bill and understand the intent of they're looking for hunter satisfaction or experience, and they're also specifically looking for, you had it on the slide, I'd have to find it again. The intent of that. Also was looking for the impacts from non-residents or the experience there. The questionnaire I see asks 3 questions: describe your changes in deer hunting, describe your changes in elk hunting, and describe your changes in upland bird hunting.
Burrows I don't know how they're ever going to deduce, like, unless somebody knew they were looking for non-resident impacts. I think the questionnaire that I see based on the intent of the House bill kind of missed the mark to get after nonresident impacts. And I guess more of a comment than a question on the House Bill 568 information they were looking for.
Quentin (staff) Chair, Commissioner Burrows, this is Quentin. I'd add to that, that piece that you're referencing on the FWP website, understood your statement there. That's a, that's a bit of an additional piece. Wanted to put some— wanted to start to share some of the core data that we were working on for the 568 report that's due on December 1st. There is actually a more formalized human dimension survey that's been out for a while now, and I don't know what the status is. We're in the back half of that.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Yeah, we're doing the analysis.
Quentin (staff) And that does more deliberately ask those sorts of questions that you referenced. So again, the piece on the website, um, Is not the whole, and in fact is kind of a second add-on just to accompany the introduction to the public of that core data that were— that will ultimately also show up with some analysis in the 568 report itself, if that helps.
Robinson Commissioner, thank you. Commissioner Wargo has his hand up.
Quentin (staff) Yeah.
Robinson Go ahead, Commissioner Wargo.
Wargo Yeah, thank you, Emily. Great job on the presentation. Appreciate that. I guess for the record, I was in the Bob Marshall this weekend. There was no non-residents in the Bob Marshall that I encountered. Anyway, I had a question on hunter effort. You had the full, I think it was slide 40.
Robinson Okay.
Wargo So, so that, that's total, total hunter effort. Do we have a sense on like, I guess, um, you know, on an individual? I guess, you know, I could probably divide out there, but I guess as far as like average, average days per hunter, and then have you taken another deeper look into that, those numbers, and I guess, is there trends on, I would think that there's a lot of baseline hunters in the state and then the folks that are really getting after it. My suspicion is there's a little bit more of an exponential increase with the select group, but does that, is that the way in which that data is presented? Is that something that you can tease out?
Emily Cooper (staff) Commissioner Margo, that's a good question. This is information that I get from Ken's folks, so I can't speak to it a whole lot. Of where and how to divide up that information. So we can have a separate conversation, if you like, with Ken and I later and figure out what we're looking for, if that's okay.
Wargo Yeah, yeah, that'd be fine.
Robinson Okay.
Wargo And then, I don't know, probably numbers you don't have off the top of your head, but the whole— we did last year kind of your starting scenario Where you kind of played out the, the different number of applicants and draw odd percentages. Do you mind maybe at a high level speaking towards what occurred with the 900 archery antelope draw last year?
Robinson If you don't have it available, you could get it.
Emily Cooper (staff) OK, OK, I don't have that at my fingertips. Sorry.
Wargo I guess, I guess I have it available. I mean, I have it, have it here. I think it, you know, we ended up By, by splitting out that, that 900 tag and then dumping in those, or having those, those extra tags, it looked like we had about like a 78% success rate for non-resident archery antelope applicants for 900.
Robinson I just, yeah, kind of—.
Wargo Pointing that out that those, because there was underutilized Or undersubscribed tags on the resident side. I think those went into that nonresident draw, or what you shared previously.
Emily Cooper (staff) Okay, so we can get you— we'll look into that and get you some, some better information for sure.
Walsh Okay, thanks.
Robinson Chair Robinson? Yep, I just have a follow-up to the landowner-sponsored tags. Could I— could you check Between, or, you know, whenever you can to see if that is under our jurisdiction, the ones that were released, because I am completely in agreement with Commissioner Burrows that it's not really the same intention for those tags. And so I, I know I spent a lot of time with the staff trying to figure out this deer tag stuff last year and what our jurisdiction was and what it, what it wasn't. And I don't remember having this conversation at all.
Robinson So, yeah, if you could just get that information to us, if it's even in our jurisdiction, or if you know, I guess.
Emily Cooper (staff) Yeah, absolutely. We'll get back to you.
Robinson Okay. I just want to make— thank you so much for this presentation. I think it's super helpful.
Public (voice D) Good.
Robin Bartsch (staff) I'm glad.
Emily Cooper (staff) I'm glad you guys find it useful, and we're happy to give it to you every year. Like we typically do, and we're always available for any other questions that come up anytime during the year.
Robinson Okay, thank you.
Emily Cooper (staff) Okay, thank you.
Robinson Commissioner Burrows, did you still have a question?
Burrows I did have one question. So one of the, um, when we hear about— and this might just go along with the license sales At what point, I, I don't know when we'll finish up those surveys, because when we hear things like non-residents harvest more deer than residents, I was just wondering if there, we can put that into a slide and kind of accommodate this, even if it's a year behind, to kind of see trends there, because we obviously take our hunter surveys and since we don't have mandatory reporting, we're projecting. Success of those tags. It'd be nice to, to see licenses and then correlate those with hunter success as well and harvest, if that's possible.
Burrows That'd just be kind of interesting to see that, that combination of licenses and then harvest.
Emily Cooper (staff) OK, that sounds great. Yeah, we'll do, we'll add that into our next presentation.
Burrows And this is Ken McDonald. I think we'll get a lot of that in this House Bill 568 report. We'll have in December.
Robinson But that'll be after our commission meeting though. But it'll be nice for the next year. Yep. Commissioner Gagnon. Yeah, Madam Chair, Emily, thank you. Emily, would it be possible for you to send those slides to us? There's a lot of info in there, and it might be good to have a little more time to digest those.
Emily Cooper (staff) Absolutely. Jesse has sent them to you, I think, a couple minutes ago, and then we will post them on the web after this meeting is over too.
Evan Klein (staff) Thank you much.
Robin Bartsch (staff) Yes.
Robinson All right, thank you. Any other—.
Emily Cooper (staff) A lot of information.
Robinson Yes, lots of information, lots of species. Okay, so we have— we probably should move on to the next agenda item if everybody's good.
Public (voice U) Okay.
24-hour trap check requirement
Robinson All right, I'm going to turn it over to Jeff Hindoin, um, to start out with our administrative rulemaking petition, please.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) All right, thank you, Madam Chair, members of the Commission. Um, we have 2 of these as action items today. What they are are petitions submitted by citizens requesting that the Commission Um, initiate an administrative rulemaking process under the Montana Administrative Procedure Act. Um, I know those of you been on the commission for a while, we've seen these from time to time. They're not super regular, but they are, uh, they do, they do come along with some degree of frequency.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) As outlined in the proposal information sheet and on the agenda, the first one is a petition requesting that the commission initiate a MAP rulemaking process to adopt a requirement for a 24-hour trap check for traps and snares set on public lands. Is under the process, you know, set forth in the statute, the Commission has 60 days to render a decision on a petition of this type, then issue a written decision. Your option in these cases is to approve the petition for rulemaking.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) You're not actually adopting the rule, but rather just advancing, making a decision to advance it into a process with— it's administered by the Montana Secretary of State. The proposed or draft rule would be published in the Montana Administrative Register. Written comments would be solicited, and public hearing would be held on a draft rule. And then at the conclusion of that process, we would bring those comments and everything back to the Commission for consideration of whether or not to actually adopt a rule.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) So from a process standpoint, with respect to the trap check petition, we indicated, as we indicated in the proposal information sheet, that the Commission— this is the authority to establish a trap check requirement is an authority the Commission has. It already has exercised that authority through the adoption of a pair of species-specific trap check requirements in its annual furbearer regulation set process.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) There really has not, at least based on what we could see, been any attempt or utilization of the MAPA process for adopting this type of regulation. For a long time. And then the only final comment about the P&I sheet, as indicated in there, even though the proposed rule language as submitted by the petitioners would include penalty provision language, that, that wouldn't be something that would get advanced into the rulemaking process.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) The legislature typically sets the penalties for the violation of both the The standards it has established in Title 87 for trapping rules and the standards for violating your rules as a commission, whether they're adopted through the MAPA process or whether they'd be adopted through a biennial reg set process. So again, this is just a request from the citizenry that they're authorized to make under the Montana Administrative Procedure Act, ask any agency to initiate a process to amend, repeal an administrative rule.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) So it's a decision really as to whether or not to advance into a rulemaking process.
Robinson So just for clarification, you have to make a motion either to approve or a motion to deny. We can't just let it— I mean, It has to have some kind of action done on it.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Madam Chair, that is correct. This is one of those that's probably not typically the standard. Many other instances with motion work, but this is one of those, correct, where we need an affirmative decision one way or the other.
Robinson And then you'll have to go— Commission, you'll have to look on your P&I sheet. Our agendas do not have the motions. Options on there. Is any questions, I guess, on the process or any questions on this petition before I open it up for a motion? I would entertain a motion if someone would like to make a motion on the 24-hour trap check. We will do these separately.
Burrows Madam Chair.
Robinson Commissioner Burrows.
Burrows I would move to deny the 24-hour trap check petition.
Robinson Is there a second?
Lane I'll second it.
Robinson Thank you. Okay, any, any questions, comments before I go out to public comment? Okay, um, I just want to remind the public to raise your hand so that we know That who are in line to comment on the motion on the table. Oh, wait a minute. We should have— is the presenters— before I accepted a motion, we should have had a presentation.
Evan Klein (staff) Is that right, Jeff?
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Yeah, we can hear the presentation for sure.
Robinson Okay, we'll go ahead and we usually allow, uh, the presenters to have some time. We do have a motion on the table. Once the presentation is made, um, if you want to withdraw your motion and, and do another motion, we can do that. So—.
Burrows Madam Chair?
Robinson Yes, who am I speaking to?
Burrows Uh, Commissioner Burrows.
Public (voice H) Okay.
Burrows I'd like to withdraw my motion until we hear from the presenter.
Robinson Okay, perfect. And Commissioner Lane, you have the second on it.
Lane Yes, I concur.
Public (voice W) Okay.
Robinson All right, who do we have lined up to, to present for this? Who was the sponsor?
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Footloose Montana Gelfand Wildlife Association.
Robinson Okay, is there anyone from Footloose who would like to speak to this? And, and this is not your 2 minutes. This is, um, this is time just to speak to the petition that you have presented to the, um, to the commission. I'm guessing Anya, would you like to speak to it? Do we have anyone who would like to speak? Okay, you need to— okay, go ahead.
Public (voice Q) Yes, thank you.
Robinson Um, can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you perfect.
Public (voice Q) Okay, well, I appreciate, uh, you giving me some time. I expected to only have up to 2 minutes to talk, so I tailored my testimony, um, up to 2 minutes. So my name is Dr. Anja Heister with Footloose Montana. We submitted together with the Gallatin Wildlife Association. We submitted this petition because the public is very concerned about the cruelty inherent in trapping, and has for more than 20 years asked for a mandatory trap check to be implemented. Professional associations and professional wildlife researchers like Carter Niemeyer and Dr. Gilbert Proll urge to implement a 24-hour trap check.
Public (voice Q) Science supports a 24-hour trap check. In 2017, Fish, Wildlife, and Parks itself recommended implementing a trap check. Fish, Wildlife, and Parks' own professional wildlife research standards require foothold traps and snares to be checked twice daily, or more often depending on the species and risk of non-target capture. Why should trappers be exempt from this professional standard?
Public (voice Q) Extending existing mandatory trap checks for wolves and bobcats in certain areas to a mandatory 24-hour trap check of all traps and snares is a practical step that responds to contemporary science and to the public's belief that our wildlife should not suffer in traps and snares for days and nights on end without anyone checking on them. If legal counsel finds that our proposed penalty requires legislative authorization— that's a hard word— Footloose Montana and Gallatin Wildlife Association hereby withdraw the proposed penalty provision.
Public (voice Q) We are asking this commission to evaluate the substance of this petition independently and to vote for Alternative A and approve this petition. The question before you today is, Will you continue to allow Montana's wild animals, companion dogs, and other non-target animals to suffer endlessly in traps and snares? Or will you implement a rule that is based on science and require trappers to check their traps and snares every 24 hours? I think it is time that trappers give a little bit.
Public (voice Q) Trappers have been successful for over 2 decades to avoid post- Posting warning signs, following a trap check, and they're not showing any signs of taking any responsibility for what they're doing. And what they're doing is to cause cruelty and great suffering and pain to publicly owned wildlife, and that is unacceptable. So please pass our petition. Thank you.
Robinson Okay, thank you. Is there anyone from the Gallatin Wildlife Association? Is that correct for the other? Is there anyone from that would like to speak to it before the commission makes a motion? Point and go. Okay, okay, go ahead.
Robin Bartsch (staff) Yes, go ahead.
Public (voice T) Uh, yeah, my name is Clinton Nagel. I'm president of the Gallatin Wildlife Association here in Bozeman, Montana. Um, I hope the commission has had a chance to read our or my written comments because they're much more explicit and reasoned than what I can Someone here in just a few minutes. Like Anya, I was expecting a minute and a half at the most to talk, so this is a pleasant surprise.
Public (voice T) But, um, be that as it may, um, GWA has signed on to these petitions, this and the bear spray petition, for the sole purpose of alleviating unwanted and unnecessary deaths of wildlife.
Public (voice O) Thank you.
Public (voice T) It's as simple as that. Uh, that is all we're trying to do as a nonprofit organization. We were established to advocate for wildlife. That is our job. There's nothing sinister. There's no extreme plot here that many accuse the environmental community of having. We're just trying to bring some sense, uh, some common sense and morality back into the hunting and trapping community. Um, it's this idea of a 24-hour trap check has been around for a long time.
Public (voice T) I understand that 36 states across our country have adopted a 24-hour daily trap inspection requirement. Um, several of those states are, they're located here in the West. Uh, the only 3 that don't have a, um, from what I understand, they don't have a 24-hour trap check of some sort is, is Montana, Alaska, and North Dakota. They have no requirement for trap checks, and I just don't understand that.
Public (voice T) I don't understand the desire or the need to allow unwanted and the suffering of wildlife for no reason other than what? I've never heard a good reason for as to why that's been allowed to occur. Um, so we— what was that? Uh, the, the 24-hour trap check is to prove Commissioner Moses. Is to prevent harm, injury, or death from species who are indiscriminately caught in traps and snares.
Public (voice T) And I'll, I'll just finish that, um, we ask that this petition, uh, be advanced to the normal process of consideration. And if we don't do this, how, how can the state of Montana move ahead? How can we Move ahead on this issue. This has been around for decades, and it's like, uh, the commission and FWP are catering to a specialized interest group, forgetting the fact that wildlife belong to all of the citizens of the state, not just those who want to trap and kill. Thank you.
Robinson All right, thank you. Okay, now, Commission, we've heard the presentation. Um, I would allow if there were any questions, or I will entertain a motion if someone like would like to make a motion.
Public (voice V) Madam Chair.
Robinson Okay, Commissioner Burrows.
Burrows Uh, I would make my motion. I would move to deny the 24-hour trap check petition.
Robinson Okay.
Lane Second.
Robinson Okay, Commissioner Lane. So Commissioner Burrows made the motion to deny it, uh, Commissioner Lane seconded it. I will, um, go out to comment, and this is where the 2-minute time limit will take place. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with every— I'm gonna— Anya and Clint, I'm gonna have you go last so that you can wrap up the comments with your 2 minutes. So I'm gonna actually start at the bottom. Well, I better not because it keeps popping up. Nancy Ostley, if I could go with you, please.
Robinson Okay, can— okay, how about Chris Morgan? Am I gonna have to go— this is an IT question— do I have to go with the 2 that are on the top, or can those be moved to be able to speak?
Public (voice D) Anybody in that list can—.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Should be able to speak.
Public (voice D) Okay.
Robinson As long as we say allowed to speak. Okay, Chris Morgan, please.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Chair Commission, can you hear me?
Robinson Yes, we can.
Public (voice W) Go ahead.
Quentin (staff) Perfect.
Public (voice D) Sorry, I wasn't getting unmuted. I'm a little under the weather today, so I'll keep it short. I sent a pretty good comment into you guys, and I appreciate some of the feedback I've gotten from that. Just real quickly, I want to say, you know, trappers have given quite a bit over the last decade. We're one of the most regulated activities that the Commission oversees, so Um, on this particular topic, uh, like I said, won't go into detail about it, but a 24-hour trap check in the state of Montana has nothing really to do with the animal suffering. It has more to do with the fact that we lack the biodiversity that other states have 24-hour trap checks go into.
Public (voice D) So, um, realistically speaking, I'd be more than happy to sit down with the petitioners on this and, and have a good chat about it at some point in time if that worked. But for the current time being, I would ask that you guys deny this petition. So thank you.
Robinson All right, thank you. We just have the first name Jennifer. Okay, okay.
Public (voice X) Hi there, can you hear me okay?
Robinson Yes, go ahead.
Public (voice X) Okay, sorry, just a little delay in the technology, I'm sure. I just have a short statement that I support the requirement changing to a 24-hour check and correlate it to the situation with other trapping regulations. From where I live in Washington, for example, crab traps requiring checks for loss, and that is to one, avoid the death, but also how they injure each other in those situations and starvation. Regulations exist for setting and retrieval of those traps for adjacent boating safety as well, which I would correlate to trap setbacks and the public safety, domestic animals, hikers. I cannot imagine the livestock owner Allowing their animal to suffer in a fixed painful trap in a similar situation.
Public (voice X) So I'd ask for similar compensation— excuse me, compassion for our wildlife. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Okay, Marie, and you're gonna have to pronounce your last name for me, please.
Public (voice Y) Hi, it's Bukwikio.
Robinson Okay, thank you.
Public (voice Y) So I think that this 24-hour check needs to go through. There's absolutely no reason for it not to. There's no reason for an animal to be out there suffering. So all the science and everything aside, I'm a teacher, so I'm going to speak for those that rarely get their voice heard, and that's the students.
Public (voice Z) Mm-hmm.
Public (voice Y) And they would— their future to include our wildlife, and there's far too much hunting and trapping Going on and the needless suffering of our wildlife out there. And it's, it's just, it's cruel, it's unnecessary, and it needs to be checked. It needs to be stopped, honestly. But, uh, yeah, please support this 24-hour check.
Robinson Okay, thank you.
Public (voice N) Thanks.
Robinson Um, Melinda Marcus, please. My name is Melinda Marquis. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Go ahead. I strongly support the Footloose Montana and Gallatin Wildlife Association petition requiring mandatory physical checks of all traps and snares at least once every 24 hours. Scientific data have established that any animal, whether it is a mammal or a bird or reptile, any animal that can be caught in these traps and snares are sentient.
Public (voice O) That means they feel pain, fear, and distress, just like I feel pain, fear, and distress.
Robinson This is undebatable. In 1975, former federal trapper Dick Randall testified before Congress that, quote, the leg-hold trap is probably the most cruel device ever invented by man and is a direct cause of an inexcusable destruction and waste of our wildlife. This was more than 50 years ago. Such traps and snares inflict barbaric pain and fear in animals. The time that animals are subject— subjected to such cruelty should be minimized. Further, traps are indiscriminate and trap and kill many non-target animals.
Evan Klein (staff) Thank you.
Robinson Trappers have for more than 20 years avoided taking responsibility for their actions. They fought trap signage and mandatory traps. It's time for them to be accountable and show some decency. Please provide mandatory— please require mandatory physical checks of all traps and snares at least once every 24 hours by approving this petition.
Evan Klein (staff) Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Marie, if you could take your hand down, you have your hand raised still. Thank you. Will Israel, please.
Public (voice H) Madam Chair and members, my name is Will Israel, Executive Director for Montana Outfitters and Guides Association. For the record, MOGA strongly opposes this petition. It fails on 3 independent grounds. First, it presents no Montana-specific data demonstrating the current trap check intervals are causing measurable harm. The commission already has targeted species-specific check requirements where the biology supports them. Second, Montana legislature has considered and rejected this exact legislation twice, in 2005 and 2019. Administrative rulemaking should not accomplish what the legislature has declined to do.
Public (voice H) Thirdly, we've heard no reason several times, and so I would ask the petitioners and other supporters to pay close attention to this. A blanket 24-hour check is physically impossible for trappers working in remote wilderness or roadless terrain. Access is governed by weather, weather and geography, not scheduling preference. A requirement that cannot be met in a storm is not a regulation, it is a prohibition. And for that, we urge the Commission to deny this petition. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Commissioners.
Robinson Thank you. Next, we have Casey York, please.
Public (voice S) Madam Chair, Commissioners, I'm Casey York with Trap Free Montana out of the Bitterroot. Instead of stringent 24-hour trap checks, our compromise would be for daily trap checks like the other 36 states, and to help reduce the indiscriminate suffering, to help the trapped non-target protected species and pets to survive and with lesser injuries. Trap-free Montana pays towards their medical bills, and claims of minor injuries are far from minor. One, for example, resulted this year in a leg amputation. Trap-free release animals are not monitored for their survival.
Public (voice S) Daily trap checks are supported by the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, who tells trappers, make a commitment to check your traps at least once a day, preferably at first light. They don't say only if you live back east. That animal welfare is a top priority and bad weather and other problems should not change that commitment. And if you can't, then have another licensed trapper help. Allowing for visual trap checks also would be fair and reasonable. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Jeff Darrow, please.
Public (voice AA) Yeah, good morning, Chair and fellow commissioners. I'm Jeff Dara. I'm the executive director of Montana Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, and I'm speaking for our hundreds of members throughout the state. We oppose this petition. The petition's stringent conditions create an impossible compliance burden for trappers and an unfeasible Enforcement mandate for the department. No states surrounding Montana have a 24-hour trap check. In many cases, checking the trap that frequently disturbs animal activity, thus making success much more difficult, if not impossible.
Public (voice AA) Thank you, and we would appreciate opposing this petition.
Public (voice AB) Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Debbie Goble, please. Hi, good afternoon, Commission. I'm Debbie Goble, MD, and I'm speaking as a concerned American citizen. I support the petition.
Emily Cooper (staff) Trapping, no matter the method used, including those that are claimed by trappers to not inflict physical pain or injury, is animal cruelty simply by virtue of taking away the animal's freedom.
Robinson It's unbelievable to me that in 2026 there are those who favor prolonging the suffering of living beings in traps. Given that it's been proven that animals are sentient, as the prior public commenter said. Montana's wildlife are held in trust for all Americans, most of whom do not regard them simply as, quote, renewable resources, end quote, or a harvest.
Emily Cooper (staff) Also, cruelty to animals has been associated with psychopathic and antisocial personality traits and should alarm us all. I sent the previous studies references with my written comment.
Robinson So the 24-hour trap check rule would absolutely be needed and will shorten the duration of horror that our wildlife experiences until recreational trapping is finally banned by today's enlightened society. Please pass this rule that reflects decency, ethics, clemency, and enlightenment. Thank you. Thank you. Art Compton, please.
Public (voice H) Yes, uh, can you hear me?
Robinson Yes, we can.
Public (voice W) Go ahead.
Public (voice H) Oh, uh, Madam Chair, Commissioners, thanks for the opportunity for a quick Comment. The you're probably going to hear from a Dr. Gilbert Pruehl today, a certified wildlife biologist and a scientist of regional and sometimes national renown. He in his testimony, he will include the fact that assessment studies conducted in Canada and the United States over the past 50 years. Have shown that the duration of confinement in foothold traps can predict injury severity. It's all about the amount of time that, that these traps injure and maim and kill.
Public (voice T) Mm-hmm.
Public (voice H) And when you look at the fact, the number of non-targeted species that are caught in our traps in Montana, this becomes A further critical issue in that, of course, those non-target animals, any responsible trapper would want to release with a minimum injury. A past FWP report by our FWP here over a 5-year period recorded 349 targeted animals caught in snares and traps. 153 Of those were domestic dogs. Trapped or snared over a 5-year plan ending 2 years ago.
Public (voice H) 99 Mountain lions were at— were caught as untargeted animals. And again, the amount of time that these untargeted animals spend in traps is maiming and killing them. That does not need to happen. Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to comment.
Robinson Thank you. Tori Dilley, please. Not seeing Tori. Okay, let's try Mike Marchand.
Public (voice V) Chair Robinson, Commissioners, Mike Mershon, that's M-E-R-S-H-O-N, representing Montana Wildlife Federation today. MWF supports trapping as a core part of our heritage. We also expect trappers to maintain the highest ethics and work to prevent conflicts and neutralize criticism when possible. If this 24-hour check proposal doesn't advance, I'd add that, you know, this is something that could More appropriately be discussed during the annual wolf and furbearer season setting process rather than through this MAPA process. However, MWF does support the intent of this proposal. We feel there's details that need further discussion.
Public (voice V) We question the need for requiring 24-hour checks on every trap and snare, which would presumably include kill sets, underwater sets, other sets that would lead to immediate death. You know, we feel these could be cumbersome and unnecessary, lead to increased wildlife disturbance through the winter, etc. Instead, we would encourage a more narrow rulemaking process to proceed, one that clearly defines and includes only live and/or draining trap sets on public land under this mandatory check requirement and such.
Public (voice V) If possible, we'd encourage Commission to adopt an amended version of Alternative A. Thanks for the chance to comment.
Robinson Thank you. Kim Bean, please.
Public (voice AC) Chair Robinson and Commission, my name is Kim Bean and I am speaking on behalf of Wolf and Wildlife Advocates. I'm hearing I'm completely changing up my my my comments simply by listening to certain people. This last gentleman talking about an amendment, Casey York. You know, these are these are people that are actually talking about coming coming to the to the table and saying a daily trap check sounds great, or amending it in some manner. I would highly highly suggest that the commission do just that. Let's amend this. Let's look at this and see what, what works for everyone. It is essential that we start looking at these traps more often. Cruelty is a part of this. We all know that.
Public (voice AC) Even the trappers know that it's not, it's not okay to be sitting in a trap for however many hours. So I recommend that the commission deny this as written, but amend it to make something like this go forward.
Robinson Thank you. All right, thank you. Joseph Scalia III, please. Uh, very good. I assume you can hear me, huh? Yes, go ahead.
Public (voice W) Okay, thank you.
Robinson I'm Dr. Joseph Scalia III, a practicing psychoanalyst, co-director of the Institute for a Democratic Psychoanalysis, and a former president of both Montana Wilderness Association And Gallatin Yellowstone Wilderness Alliance.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) I address now in my capacity as a psychoanalyst.
Robinson There are 2 psychodiagnostic types of wolf hunters and trappers. One, the more difficult to hear about, is the sadist, by definition incapable of changing their views and incapable of any empathy other than a showy, and false one. The other, more hope-inducing, is the neurotic, relatively healthy beings whose failed empathy for the wolf is not an all-encompassing failed empathy in their character. Authentic empathy does show up in them in other areas of their lives.
Robinson Yet they have a reliance, though it is curable, on the false machismo of the sadist, from whom they borrow an identity as strong and admirable, incorrect though that be. It is this second group, likely in the majority, whose blindness to the sentience of the wolf I hope to agitate.
Public (voice AD) Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Glenda Meyer, please. Thank you very much for this opportunity. I just want to say the difference between a 24 and 48-hour trap check causes unnecessary animal torture and killing of pets and non-target animals. Also, with today's technology, there's no reason traps cannot be checked same, uh, by the next day. If trappers are way too busy to check traps, then they shouldn't be trapping at all. Obviously, you are already going to deny this motion, so all of this is just for the record, uh, but how can you deny this motion with the overwhelming public support?
Public (voice V) Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Uh, Celia M., please.
Public (voice N) Commissioners, Madam Chair, my name is Cecilia Mink. Excuse me. And I am from the Flathead Valley. Based on the contents and information provided to you in the 24-hour trap check petition, I am in support of requiring every trap and snare on public land to be physically checked at least every 24 hours. Trapping inflicts needless suffering on animals, and for most trappers, it is a hobby. Not a livelihood. Trapping is animal cruelty in its purest form. As mentioned before, if traps are hard to get to, they can ask for help as they have other people willing to.
Public (voice N) Montana is one of the only 3 states without a general trap check time, and it is time that we step up to the plate and show that we can do better than this. I am in support of requiring a 24-hour trap check. Thank you for your time.
Public (voice AE) Thank you.
Robinson Josh Schott, please.
Lane Hi, my name is Josh Schott. I'm a multi-generational Montanan and an organizer for Team Wolf. I live in Missoula, and despite the differences Montanans can have with one another, the one thing that binds us all together is our shared deep connection to the land and wildlife. Montanans honor and profoundly respect the land and wildlife. Montana is the last best place for that exact reason. However, trapping is a violation of that shared connection and disrespects and dishonors the wildlife we share the land with. It is torture and is an especially cruel and unethical practice that violates fair chase principles and has no place in wildlife management. Montanans agree.
Lane With only 36% tolerating wolf trapping. A 24-hour trap check is literally the absolute bare minimum to reduce the suffering of the wildlife that define our great state. The wildlife is why we love living here. They deserve our respect, and I strongly urge the commission to listen to Montanans and approve this petition. And I want to remind the commission that you serve all Montanans Not just one very small special interest group. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. I think the next one is N.A. Bishop. A.B. Monet, A.B.A. Monet.
Name included without consent on Safari Club wolf comment letter
Public (voice O) Yes, I'm Alexandra Amanette. I'm from Sweetgrass County.
Robinson Chair Robinson and commissioners, my, um, I oppose trapping, and also I'm very upset that my name was included on a list of Safari Club members supporting their endorsement letter for killing more wolves. And this letter was submitted to the Fish and Wildlife Commission.
Public (voice O) My name actually appears among a list of names on page 831 of the August 18th attachments to Wolf Comments.
Robinson I never agreed to sign onto this letter, and I'm not affiliated with the Safari Club.
Public (voice O) So I oppose the killing of wolves, and I believe that all the natural world has a right to existence, and we're only a small part of this magnificent, immense natural world. We, especially in Montana, need to be the best stewards of our wildlife. And their habitat.
Public (voice P) Thank you.
Robinson All right, thank you. Uh, Nicole Johnson. Story Warren, please. Oh, Nicole. I'll go back to Nicole.
Public (voice U) You need to—.
Opposition to wolf harvest
Robinson You are muted. Uh, you got Norm Bishop.
Brooke Aha!
Quentin (staff) Are you hearing me?
Robinson Yep, go ahead. Marvelous, thanks. Um, well, uh, Commissioners, uh, I appreciate the opportunity to comment. Um, I'm gonna have to keep it short here. Um, this is a general comment, uh, regarding, uh, harvest of, of wolves.
Robinson Biologist Gordon Haber, after studying wolves for 43 years in Alaska, wrote in his book Among Wolves, other than relatively light and sporadic sustenance subsistence use in areas where it's a traditional practice, it is clearly best not to allow any harvest of natural wolf populations. Huh, that's pretty clear. He also wrote, many complex controls operate between predators and prey.
Robinson When they are left to themselves, the result is an animal community characterized by a high degree of vigor, genetic diversity, great variety, and the ability to withstand major natural disturbances such as severe winters. Aldo Leopold wrote, a thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic community, It is wrong when it tends otherwise.
Evan Klein (staff) Thank you.
24-hour trap check requirement
Robinson Thank you, Susan Bilo. Yep, go ahead.
Public (voice Z) Hi there, my name is Susan Bilo, and I live in Bozeman, Gallatin County. And Madam Chair, Commissioners, there's a there's a quote by Emmanuel Kant that says we. You can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. And I think that sums up very nicely the moral need to require 24-hour trap and snare checks to reduce the amount of pain and suffering an animal endures after being trapped. It will also—.
Robinson Think about this—.
Public (voice Z) Will increase, increase the chances that an endangered species or other non-targeted animal could be released less seriously injured and alive. And I really like Mr. Mershon's A suggestion about, you know, just non-lethal traps for this being applying to that. Obviously, if it's a trap that automatically kills an animal, that would need to be included. So that definitely— I think that's a good consideration. Thank you for your time.
Robinson All right, thank you. Nancy Ostley.
Public (voice O) Thank you for unmuting me. I appreciate not being excluded. I am in concert with many of my friends and colleagues who spoke before me, just Susan Bilo, recommending Mike Marshawn's suggestion that you make an amendment that only traps that disable or restrain an animal be checked within 24 hours, not necessarily the immediately lethal traps.
Public (voice O) I also strongly agree with people like Cecilia M. and Josh Schott, who have made arguments about how wild animals are the heritage of all Montanans, and we need to— Preserve the Show respect and restraint. You know, in 2013, I met with trappers at the Pancake House and came up with a 10-point, uh, proposal for the Fish and Wildlife Commission and presented it under Dan Vermillion's encouragement. And only, uh, one setback change— setback was changed.
Public (voice O) But the trappers themselves admitted that there are many restrictions that can be placed on trapping that are reasonable. And I don't really understand who's behind the intention that there would be no negotiation. So thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Ryan Murphy.
Quentin (staff) Hey, can you hear me?
Robinson Yes, we can.
Public (voice W) Hi, Commissioner.
Robinson My name is Ryan Murphy.
Lane I'm from Lewistown, Montana. I'm a lifetime Montana resident. Trapping has been a generational thing in my family. It's been passed down to me as a kid, and I've trapped my entire life. This is just another attempt by anti-trappers and transplants to Montana to ban trapping on public lands. It's been shot down in legislative. It's been shot down in public vote. I keep hearing a lot that the vast majority is for a 24-hour trap check, except for when I check all the public comments, all I see is opposition in the majority of it. So, um, 24-hour trap check will only increase trapper conflict as trappers will have to trap closer to urban areas.
Lane And whether there's a 24-hour trap check or not, non-target species are still going to be caught.
Evan Klein (staff) So.
Lane I'm strongly opposed to this, and know the commission will do the right thing. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you.
Public (voice Q) Of course.
Robinson Susan Bilo, if you could lower your hand, please, since you've already gone. Mark Cook, please.
Public (voice F) Derek, Commissioner, my name is Mark Cook.
Robinson Please take your call outside.
Public (voice F) Chair, Commissioners, my name is Mark Cooke, and I'm— that's M-A-R-C-C-O-O-K-E— and I'm with Wolves of the Rockies. I want to respectfully remind the Commission that this is a 24-hour trap check, and it's not a ban on hunting. It's a reasonable standard for traps placed on public lands that we all share. When an animal, including a non-target animal or a family pet, is caught, the length of time it spends in these traps is really important. We believe asking the trappers to check, you know, check their traps every 24 hours is a reasonable responsibility that comes with the use of using this equipment on public lands.
Public (voice F) So I— And I'd like to say something that's a little different, and I'll close. And that is we're kicking the can down the road on addressing this thorny issue. And I don't want to tell you how many times I've been at legislation and there are legislators that are pushing for certain, certain wildlife issues, and those issues degrade or take away or undermine the intent of why we have a commission. Let's not kick the can down the road. Let's not leave this up to the legislation to form a policy on 24-hour trap checks.
Public (voice F) Let's get this done working together, bringing all stakeholders together, and let's talk about this. So I would encourage the Commission to move in the right direction and support this. Thank you.
Robinson Okay, thank you. Uh, I think I tried Tori Dilley before. Let's try it one more time.
Public (voice R) Hi, can you hear me?
Robinson Yes, go ahead.
Public (voice R) I apologize for the issue earlier. Good afternoon, members of the commission. I appreciate the opportunity to comment. My name is Tori Dilley. I'm a Montana resident in Region 3, and I'm speaking on behalf of the Center for Biological Diversity and our Montana members in support of the petition requiring the 24-hour trap checks. First, I want to be clear that the center opposes the hunting and trapping of wolves, and the state of Montana's wolf hunting and trapping program. However, requiring traps and snares to be checked every 24 hours is really an important and very reasonable safeguard. As others have spoken to, the science supports a 24-hour trap check because the amount of time an animal spends in a trap really matters.
Public (voice R) The longer an animal's trapped, the greater the potential for injury, needless suffering, as others have spoken to, and death. And this is really important for non-target animals. Here in Montana, trapping occurs in habitat occupied by species protected under the Endangered Species Act, which includes grizzly bears, Canada lynx, and wolverines. And these animals do get caught in traps, and there are serious consequences for not only individual animals but the recovery of these species. I think that something that we can really all appreciate as Montanans is how fortunate we are to share this state with incredible diversity of wildlife, and that includes species that have been eradicated from much of their historic range. And with that, there really comes a responsibility to take reasonable and preventative steps to protect them.
Public (voice R) And as the petition notes, many states already require traps to be checked daily. Montana can do the same. So it's a simple, common-sense safeguard that can make a meaningful difference for wildlife. So the Center really urges the commission members to advance the petition and initiate Thank you.
Robinson Larry Retray, please. Okay, how about Gilbert?
Public (voice AD) Hello, can you hear me?
Robinson We can, go ahead.
Public (voice AD) Okay, my name is Gilbert Proulx. I'm a wildlife biologist, specialized in mammals. I have spent more than 50 years of research on traps, trapping systems, and management of furbearers. And I'm also a hunter and a trapper.
Public (voice AD) I trap all my life, and I support the 24-hour Period, because not only the animals that spend longer in the traps get hurt and seriously hurt, and in killing neck snares, they do not die immediately and they suffer long death, but also is because we— these traps like foothold traps and snares will catch non-target species, some of them being species at risk. So it is our duty as trappers And wildlife managers to make sure that the right animals are being captured and we do not impact on other species.
Public (voice AD) From a practical point of view, if you check your trap every 24 hours, that means that if a domestic species, be it cattle or a pet, be captured, you can release it and hopefully with less injury. From a trapper point of view, a trap that is checked more often and the animal has been removed within 24 hours has a better pelt. And the pelt value keeps its full integrity. So from a wildlife management point of view, we have 50 years of research showing that traps can be checked every 24 hours.
Public (voice AD) Even on long trap lines by splitting the trap lines into sections, and we have shown that by doing so, we have a better ethics towards wildlife and towards the profession. So I would recommend seriously that you consider the 24-hour trap check, not only for restraining traps, but also for some killing traps that do not kill humanely and do not kill. Including the killing next there. Thank you very much.
Robinson Thank you. Okay, I'm gonna try Larry Rattray, please, again. Okay, seems like you can go ahead. Yes, go ahead.
Public (voice AG) Hi.
Public (voice AB) Um, first I'd like to say I think the commission set no bad precedents by having a meeting and catering to these people, because there's no reason we couldn't have had this same meeting in August and And discussed it at that point. Perhaps next month we should discuss loose dogs harassing game animals that they're concerned about that are getting caught in traps. I think that we're we're maybe setting a bad precedent. Something that we shouldn't be doing. I would like to say that you know they're quite concerned about the welfare of animals and the distress, and the the quite often when we go to check a trap and whatnot, the animal is asleep. They are not in distress.
Public (voice AB) They are not fighting this thing for 24 hours or whatever. And so I think they're, they maybe, you know, just a little too much Disney Channel. And hopefully, you know, they can realize that these animals are not suffering unnecessarily. And we need to have a longer period of time to check traps in order not to destroy the trap line to where we can actually do it. And we do need to manage these animals. Some of them need to be removed. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Okay, Story Warren, please.
Public (voice AE) Hello, Chair Robinson, Vice Chair Walsh, and members of the Commission. My name is Story Warren, and I'm a wildlife program manager with Humane World for Animals. I have a degree in wildlife biology from the University of Montana, and I have experience with foothold trapping for research, including with FWP. As a former Montana resident, I frequently visit and recreate on Montana public lands with my dog for the purpose of tracking and observing wildlife. According to the Trapper Education Manual compiled by the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, quote, responsible trappers will visit their traps daily. There is less chance for predation and less chance an animal will injure itself, end quote.
Public (voice AE) The longer an animal is left in a trap, the more likely they are to experience injuries, dehydration, overheating, or hypothermia, and even starvation, since currently most trapped animals in Montana can be left in traps or snares for weeks or more. When trapping with state agencies, I saw both target and non-target animals sustain moderate to severe injuries, even with traps being checked daily or twice daily. It is simply not ethical to leave animals in traps for longer than that, much less for an unlimited amount of time. With the decisions in recent years to remove wolf trap setbacks requirements in several western Montana counties, non-target captures, including pets, are likely to become more frequent. This was evidenced by the dogs injured in traps in Mineral County this year.
Public (voice AE) The longer a non-target animal is left in an unchecked trap, the smaller the chance they can survive and be released. Montana is one of only a few states that lacks a broad trap checking requirement. That is an inexcusable oversight that must be corrected. It is a recreational trapper's responsibility to incorporate trap checking requirements into their trapline. Public lands and wildlife belong to the public, and ethical conservation must be prioritized over simple convenience. Please move forward with rulemaking on this petition. Thank you for your time.
Robinson Thank you. Is there anyone— I guess I'm going to go back to Anya. Do you have any closing comments?
Public (voice U) Go ahead.
Public (voice AC) Alrighty.
Public (voice Q) Yeah, thank you. So the primary reason for this petition is that Montana's wild animals are exposed to unimaginable physical and emotional trauma, including stress, struggle, severe pain, fear, exposure to severe weather, depredation, exhaustion, dehydration, self-inflicted injury, including self-amputation. I don't know if the commissioner saw or even read through our petition. But it shows a photo of a mountain lion, a paw severed in a wolf trap. You know, these things are happening. It is unbelievable.
Public (voice Q) And just a comment to the gentleman who spoke, Larry Retray's comment that animals in traps are asleep. This just shows the ignorance of— by trappers, you know, about animal behavior. Again, in my petition, in our petition, there are photos of a coyote that struggled in a neck snare for 15, almost 15 hours. Of course, when the trapper— before dying. Of course, when the trapper comes back to the trap, that animal is dead. And when the animals are still alive, they're not asleep. They are in shock because their blood pressure dropped in the panic and pain. They have been enduring.
Public (voice Q) Scientific evidence demonstrates that the first 24 hours following capture represents the period during which physiological stress responses escalate most rapidly, and restraint time beyond 24 hours is associated with increased exertion, struggling, injury, dehydration, starvation, effects of exposure, and capture myopathy. Maybe Larry should look up the word myopathy.
Public (voice AH) Yeah.
Public (voice O) You just—.
Robinson No personal attacks, please.
Public (voice Q) It's, uh, science aside, it is, uh, trapping is animal cruelty. There is no doubt about it. And it is hard to believe that Montana allows this level of cruelty. The comment by outfitter, um, by this Outfitter Association representative shows the cruelty and brutality of pro-trapping individuals. You don't want, uh, trappers or yourself exposed to a snowstorm, but you don't care that animals are sitting in your traps and snares and in pain and suffering endlessly. In response to Jeff Dara, again, 36 states have already adopted a 24-hour or a daily trap check.
Public (voice Q) So apparently it is doable. Montana is only one of 3 states without a general trap check. Hunters are required to track and kill injured animals, but trappers are allowed to inflict endless cruelty. The minimum that trappers should be asked to do is to check their traps and snares every 24 hours. As the American Society of Mammalogists has emphasized, trappers should set only as many traps or snares as they can check at reasonable intervals. A trapper's available time, not individual preference, should determine how many traps are set, reflecting personal responsibility.
Public (voice Q) Trap check intervals should be based on science, not left to individual judgment alone. Science supports a 24-hour trap check. So science aside, again, trapping is animal cruelty, and it is time for trappers to be held accountable and take responsibility for all the pain and suffering they cause to Montana, Montana's wild animals. Please pass and advance our petition. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. I do have one more person, Elena Tillman, if you'd like to go.
Public (voice X) Sure.
Public (voice P) I'm so sorry. I think my hand got Okay. But I'll be super brief. I don't have like a ton value added to what other folks have already said, but I just want to say that I support the 24-hour traps, trap checks. I believe it's really kind of the least we could do. And, you know, I'll echo what others have said about capture myopathy. I volunteer for a wildlife clinic, and I also do volunteer transport. For injured animals, and many of which are furbearers, trapped animals, not that have been trapped already, but the types that can and are found in traps.
Public (voice P) And I just wanna add that that is a huge factor in the prolonged fear, the injury, the exposure, the dehydration, starvation, or death is something that should be considered. And again, I just wanna echo what others have said about public lands belonging to all Montanans and should not be places where animals can be left suffering for days. Again, 24 hours I see as a bare, bare minimum, as basic common sense. And if trapping is to be permitted on public lands, which it is, I know it's part of Montana heritage, there should be a minimum requirement for promptness and regularity. So again, please adopt this petition. Thank you.
Robinson Okay, thank you. I want— Clint, I will let you go in a second, but I just want to ask the regional offices if they're Anyone in the regional offices who are going to speak? I can't see the regional offices, and I don't know if you can raise your hands. Okay.
Robin Bartsch (staff) We've got one in Region 2, Chair Robinson.
Robinson Okay, I'll go ahead. Go ahead.
Public (voice AH) Yes, good afternoon. My name is Mary Price. P-R-I-C-E. I reside in Missoula. The interagency grizzly bear study team says approximately 85% of all documented grizzly bear deaths are human-related.
Robinson This, this one is about— okay, excuse me. This one—.
Public (voice AH) No, this is Ocean.
Robinson This is Ocean is about the trap check.
Public (voice AH) Yes, I'm aware of that. Okay, I'm aware of that. Thank you. Further, the Fish, Wildlife, and Parks has officially documented at least 27 Occurrences of grizzlies being incidentally trapped, often resulting in injury or death to the bears. To its credit, Fish, Wildlife, and Parks adopted a wolf trapping season, season regulation that sets the season from January 1st through February 15th for traps placed in grizzly habitat. However, just as there are no bear-proof garbage cans only bear-resistant containers, there is no grizzly-proof trapping season or traps.
Public (voice AH) Therefore, I urge the, the Commission to initiate the rulemaking process for a 24-hour trap check requirement. And I urge the Commission to adopt a policy that the department shall investigate all incidental takes of grizzlies by traps or snares placed on public lands and to make the report publicly available. This information is necessary to reduce injury and death of grizzly bears and to protect safety of the public. Thank you.
Public (voice Y) All right.
Robinson Thank you. And I'm sorry to interrupt you. I thought you were trying to comment on our next one that's to do with bears.
Public (voice AH) That, that's okay. Thank you.
Robinson Okay, uh, Clint Nagle, please.
Public (voice T) Yeah, thank you. Um, first, I, I appreciate this opportunity for you to, uh, listen to our petition and listen to the petitioners, uh, and supporters of the petition. Um, I have to admit, I'm a little— I was distraught in the beginning here when we first started, because the commission was going to vote this down without even listening to what we had to say. And I think that's a problem. And that's a problem in the state legislature.
Public (voice T) And it's a problem here with the commission that— and that's what— that's why we have not progressed further on this is because there is a special interest antagonism against, uh, what we're trying to do. That's, that's really what comes down to it. The public, the mass public supports this, but you refuse to listen to them no matter how many times we get up to speak. Um, but I wanted to address, uh, several things that, uh, the opponents brought up.
Public (voice T) One of them was that, uh, one reason that we didn't need a 24-hour trap check was because the biodiversity in Montana is lacking. I have no idea where that came from, or— I mean, you gotta be kidding me. I mean, Montana is probably one of the most biodiverse states in the lower 48. Um, so that— I, I just can't believe that was even said. Um, another one was that Montana, or that was said that they can't do a 24-hour trap check because the weather can be too harsh and it's long distances.
Public (voice T) Montana is not the only state that has harsh weather and have where trappers have to travel long distances. I mean, let's get real here. It was also said that we—I couldn't believe I heard this one. Montana, we haven't provided scientific evidence to show the suffering of wildlife. Really, how do we do that? How do we? Do we have to do that? Is that where we are? I mean, I just can't believe what I'm hearing here. And another one said that you're setting bad precedent. To listen to the public.
Public (voice T) My God, what do we? What country is this? I'll just leave it at that. You guys have an obligation to listen to the public, to listen to the citizens of the state, and I'll just leave it at that. Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
Robinson All right, thank you. Are there any other regional office?
Public (voice AC) Okay.
Robinson Seeing who I got here. I do have— I will allow one more. I do have one more hand raised, and then I am closing comments. Don Wilkins.
Public (voice AI) Thank you, Madam Chair. Don Wilkins, Libby, Montana. Commissioners, can you hear me?
Robinson Yes, we can.
Public (voice W) Go ahead.
Public (voice AI) Okay, mandating a 24-hour trap check is gonna do— is only gonna accomplish 2 things. It's going to put human scent on the trap line every day, which will hinder success rates for the target species. Which may be the overall agenda of the proponents of this petition. With the price of fuel, it is not going to be cost-effective for trappers to go out and check their traps every day, which would also drop success rates, which may also be part of the agenda of the proponents of this petition. Most of the trappers I— that I know have a real job.
Public (voice AI) Where they work 40 hours a week, and it would be very hard for these trappers to, to work every day and then go out and check trap lines in the dark. Please deny this petition. Thank you.
Robin Bartsch (staff) Thank you.
Robinson All right, is there, are there any questions or comments from the commissioners? Commissioner Wargo?
Wargo Yeah, thanks, Madam Chair. Just, I guess, I think you hit on it in the Beginning of the meeting, but just kind of point of clarification. Um, I mean, after, after we've heard from public comment, we fully have the ability to, you know, modify our, our motion or, or go back with, with something else if they're like—.
Robinson Just— okay.
Public (voice P) Yep.
Robinson But then we have to go out with a motion for comment. Uh, it can be modified after the public comment. Well, we did receive Written comments also. Anything else, Commissioner? Okay, Commissioner Gagnon. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just wondering if Jeff could restate the process. If this is approved or denied, what are the next steps for moving this forward?
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Madam Chair, Commissioner Gagnon, if the Commission is not— chooses to not advance the petition into a rulemaking process, there's no further process, so to speak, around this requirement at the moment. But as you've heard through some of the public comment and prior discussion, this is a— you know, it's an element or requirement that can be adopted by the Commission during its annual furbearer regulation set. And you heard references to at least a couple other instances of attempts to have this established as a matter of legislative policy.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) So if the action is to not advance the petition, that's where, you know, those process pathways would remain. If the decision is made to advance the petition, It would simply put a proposed rule into the MACRA process for solicitation of further public comment.
Robinson Any further questions? Commissioner Gagnon, I know this is probably newer to you because it's the first time you've gone through this. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Wargo Thank you.
Robinson Yeah. Commissioner Burrows?
Burrows Just wanted to respond, and Commissioner Wargo kind of touched on it, that that motion was not to do anything without public comment but was just to initiate that public comment and discussion. I made the motion to deny the petition because I don't feel like it was ready for prime time. And I think we heard that from some of the folks that may have typically supported that petition. While there may be some merits to looking at an alternative to what we have now, I appreciate that Trappers Association offering up to those folks that if you want to get together and have a conversation, let's see what we can come up with to maybe come up with a petition that works for everyone.
Burrows It's so disingenuous to hear that all Montanans or majority of Montanans support this petition and what we're doing here. I read through all the 600 and some pages of comments. I didn't see that a majority of Montanans supported, or even a majority of the commenters supported the petition. I didn't go through a counting process to see, but I, I guess I'm tired of hearing that over and over again, that a majority of Montanans support, when I clearly don't think that's true based on the public comment and those that I talked to, at least in Region 2. Unintended consequences of a petition. We heard it's a first. It's an impossibility.
Burrows So putting that on law enforcement to make some sort of enforcement decision on somebody who physically couldn't check their trap lines and putting that back on the trappers, an impossibility. Again, another reason why this petition was not ready for prime time. The discussions about the Non-target species, not necessarily the bears and wildlife, but going back to the pets.
Burrows Why isn't there a petition to propose a leash law on public lands that if we're specifically worried about pets, I would make the assumption that if we've got a non-target pet in a trap that came from a dog being at large, especially if it's in that trap. For a long period of time, that dog was out there running wild on public lands, probably not, probably harassing wildlife in some case, or at least chasing them out of there. Then got in that trap. So one way that I guess the petitioners could avoid, or maybe a petition to avoid those pets at least being in the non-target animals or pets being in traps, we could.
Burrows Propose a leash law and a penalty for having dogs at large on public lands. Another reason why I didn't feel like I'm right in the petition itself, the rationale was that it was going to reduce incidents and frequencies of non-target. I don't think that's true either. It may reduce the time spent in the trap, but I don't think it even accomplished one of the 2 main goals the petition. So hence the rationale for my motion to deny the petition, Madam Chair.
Robinson Thank you. Commissioner Lane.
Lane Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, I kind of have to agree for the same reasons as Commissioner Burrows. Uh, one of my biggest things, and I think this comment was made, was that here in Region 7, it—.
Public (voice D) We were—.
Lane It's big country here. Traveling in Between trap checks, it's, it's not going to be feasible and, and, and enforceable. And how, how are you going to know if that person's been out there and checked it in the last 24 hours without somebody actually reporting it or a game warden actually, uh, trying to enforce that, which we already don't have enough game wardens as it is. So to task them even more with what we already have is, is asking a little bit too much. But if you were to say, well, then let's bring it in closer, that within a 24-hour check period, then the comment was made it's going to bring more trappers closer to urban areas, which is going to just cause more conflict.
Lane Um, so, you know, it wasn't that I— it's not that I do not think that this has merit. It just isn't a one-size-fits-all for the entire state. And, uh, and that is the reason that I also supported the denial of this.
Wargo So thank you.
Robinson I just quickly want to talk about, uh, I think we talked a little bit about it, uh, Jeff, that, uh, we only have a certain number of days. So when these petitions come in, this special meeting is for a purpose because we have to respond within a certain number of days when those petitions show up. So it's not that we're giving anybody special treatment or whatever. It's, uh, we're following our due diligence on what, what we need to do, correct? Okay.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Yes, ma'am.
Quentin (staff) Sure.
Robinson Any other questions, comments? All those in favor of the petition, uh, denial of the petition, signify by saying aye.
Evan Klein (staff) Aye.
Administrative Rulemaking Petition – Bear Spray Requirement
Robinson All opposed, same sign. Okay, motion carries. Thank you. Okay, we— does anybody need a break before we go into the next petition? Okay. All right, we'll go ahead into the next petition. We'll follow the same process. Um, I do want to remind you that I will not allow personal attacks. So you can talk about something that somebody else has talked about, please do not use their name when referring to that comment.
Quentin (staff) Okay.
Robinson All right, Jeff, if you wouldn't mind introducing the next rulemaking petition, please.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Madam Chair, members of the Commission, this is the second of the 2 petitions that you have before you today for consideration. Again, all the same process. Backdrop there and context. The use of the provision of the Montana Administrative Procedure Act whereby citizens, and in some cases legislators, can petition any agency for the adoption, repeal, amendment of administrative rules that are put out by that agency.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) As you just mentioned, 60-day process, typically by which a written decision at the end of that process needs to be issued and based on the information submitted to the agency, including in this instance the comment that you solicited in writing and in here today at the meeting. This particular petition requests the adoption of a rule that would require require any person who hunts, traps, or accompanies a hunter as an outfitter or guide in grizzly bear habitat to carry bear spray and have it be reasonably accessible.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) As outlined in the proposal and information sheet, the Commission has the authority to set policies for the species and protection, preservation, management, and also the authority to set the, quote, hunting, fishing, and trapping rules of the department. Again, as we mentioned in the context of the first petition, to the extent the petition here has an element seeking the establishment of a penalty, that wouldn't be something that you would do through administrative rule.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) That's covered by the legislature's already having a residual penalty provision for violation of your rules, whether they're a MAPA rule or rule adopted during your regulation setting process. So, um, this one, yes, if you'll notice in the, the petition analogizes this to the Hunter Orange requirement, and on that page 2 of the post-con information sheet The, the question of the Commission's authority in the last context, the last petition, isn't— wasn't, wasn't really an issue. You do have the authority to adopt trap check requirements.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) You do so in, in a couple instances, but not through the MAPA process, but through the annual reg set. In this case, um, the extent this can be characterized as a hunting or trapping rule, There's at least, you know, some basis for assessing this as falling within the Commission's rule-setting authority. That being said, as we pointed out, really where this has happened in the past with the hunter orange, that's legislative.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) And even in those instances where the Commission's authority has been addressed by the legislature for hunting equipment, you've got the situation where the legislature Your ability with respect to firearms, firearm accessories, and ammunition. And, you know, been very— been really specific about where, where the commission's space is relative to equipment. In that context, archery equipment modifications, electronic motion tracking.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) So all kind of a typical fashion of my— Just long-winded way of saying The space here for doing— to adopting this type of requirement isn't as clear as it is with respect to the last one, but that's the space to navigate through for the Commission. Again, happy to answer any questions, but that's the process piece on this one.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Just for situational awareness, the petitioners did submit A more or less identical petition to the department as distinct from the commission for requests for the department to advance this rule into the MAPA rulemaking process, and the department denied that petition, but based principally on the fact that the department's authorities are tied more to the animals, the game management side and not the, the ones given to the Commission for hunting, fishing, and trapping rules.
Robinson So, so did you see what the petition actually is asking?
Evan Klein (staff) Yes.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Yeah, Madam Chair, the actual petition itself is the request for the adoption of a requirement, an administrative rule promulgated by the Commission to require any person in having, who hunts, traps, or accompanies an outfitter, or as a hunter, outfitter, guide, to carry bear spray and have it reasonably accessible at all times while hunting and trapping in grizzly bear habitat.
Robinson Okay, thank you. I will, I'm going to let the petitioner give us just a little overview before I ask for any questions from the Commission or A motion. So, Anya, would you like to go ahead? And I, I usually this is a 10-minute time limit, so I will set that, and then you guys can decide who you want to do it.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Yeah, Madam Chair, the petitioner in this case is is Flathead Lolo. Oh, sorry, I had the wrong one.
Robinson Okay, so who would that be?
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Several other NGOs. Is it Ms. Ames?
Robinson Yeah, I've got Patty Ames. Okay, is Patty Ames on? Not seeing anybody. Is there any other names? I don't have any names of who the individuals, I guess, for the petitioners.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Mr. Nagel is a co-petitioner on this one. Or one of the members of the organizations, huh?
Robin Bartsch (staff) Gallatin?
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Yes, Clint Nagle.
Robinson Clint Nagle?
Public (voice T) Yeah, um, thank you. Uh, I am, I am not the— I think we are like a co-signer to the petition. I'm willing to speak, but, uh, I'm surprised no one from, uh, the, the main petitioners, uh, I would like to give them a chance first, but if, if they're not available, I can say my 2 cents.
Robinson Is there no one from Flathead-Lolo-Bitterroot Citizens Task Force on? If you are, raise your hand.
Public (voice W) Hello, this is Mike. You got my audio?
Robinson Yes, go ahead.
Public (voice W) Okay, we didn't—.
Public (voice AB) We weren't aware.
Public (voice W) I'm one of the petitioners. We weren't aware we would have this opportunity, but I will try to make this brief. Petitioners are seeking ways to reduce conflicts between grizzly bears and humans. We believe that requiring hunters and trappers to carry bear spray and have it readily accessible Not reasonable, reasonably, as Jeff said, is a public safety issue which can save the lives of humans and bears. Petitioners are affected by each grizzly bear mortality in Montana, particularly those considered preventable or avoidable. The loss of human life or serious injury is tragic and to some extent is avoidable.
Public (voice W) Conflicts between hunters, trappers, Incidents involving hunters and grizzly bears have significantly increased in recent years in the northern Continental Divide ecosystem and the Montana portion of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. In many of these incidents, people engaged in hunting activity were not carrying bear spray or did not have it readily accessible. Hunting and trapping in grizzly bear habitat is inherently risky. Hunters often stalk quietly alone through thick brush and forest, often wear musk odors that mask human scent, and they're next to freshly killed animals that may attract bears. Trappers have caught many grizzly bears in their traps within Montana, and unknowingly approaching a trapped grizzly bear is very dangerous.
Public (voice W) The use of baited and scented traps can attract bears from significant distances. Bear spray has been shown to be effective at resolving bear-human conflicts non-lethal, injury-free way. Bear spray is effective at reducing the risk of injury or death in these situations. Carrying bear spray and having it readily accessible is recommended online and in public service and media announcements by the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks, the National Park Service, the U.S. Forest Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and other entities.
Public (voice W) A brochure published by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee and distributed by Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks states, quote, I already carry a gun when I hunt. Do I still need bear spray? Yes, bear spray requires less accuracy than bullets fired at a moving target, especially when you're under stress. Accidental discharges or badly aimed firearms can kill people, while bear spray has never caused a fatality. Bear spray leaves the bear alive and less likely to approach humans in the future.
Public (voice W) There has been a study published about the efficacy of bear spray that found that it resolved— stopped bears' undesirable behavior between 90 and 100% of the time. I would close with a quote from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's last grizzly bear status assessment. Quote, defensive life situations often occur during surprise encounters at hunter-killed carcasses or gut piles, or when packing out carcasses. In addition, the use of hounds to hunt black bears may increase the likelihood of a defensive life kill if hounds chase a grizzly bear instead of a black bear.
Public (voice W) By promoting the use of bear spray and continuing I&E programs, pertaining to food and carcass storage and retrieval, risk to hunters can be substantially minimized, and many of these grizzly bear deaths can be reduced, unquote. I'll finish by saying we think the commission has the authority to do this. We're not singling out hunters and trappers. Those are activities that have higher risk and have had higher conflicts, and there are areas that the Commission has the authority to regulate. We think all people should carry bear spray while they're in grizzly bear habitat.
Public (voice W) So, uh, Madam Commissioner— Madam Chair, I'm sorry— and Commissioners, I appreciate the opportunity to speak, and I urge you to advance this, uh, rule. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Clint, would you like to add anything to that?
Public (voice T) Yeah, I can, I can say just a little bit. Mike has done an extraordinary job in pulling this together, and I know there were several others involved in it as well. And I hope that you had a chance to again read Uh, our written comments. Um, again, I was not prepared to do a full long testimony on this. I was expecting only 2 minutes or so. But, uh, basically all we're trying to do here is to prevent unwanted and unnecessary deaths, and in this case, uh, that of grizzly bears. It's, it's not rocket science.
Public (voice T) Um, there's no sinister methods behind it. It just seems like to me like common sense. And obviously, uh, just because, uh, someone carries bear spray doesn't mean that they're going to use it. Hopefully they would. Um, but there's got to be some sense of morality here in how we treat wildlife. And it, it just seems like to me we're, uh, Kind of a shoot-from-the-hip mentality. And by not even allowing— or, uh, we're going to recommend— but not even mandating the use or the carry of bear spray just seems like a, um, dereliction of duty.
Public (voice T) I mean, if, if this, uh, if FWP wants to manage grizzly bears, seem like they would take the low-hanging fruit here and try to reduce the mortality of, of basically what, what they call as incidental deaths or defense of human life killings. I mean, no one wants to be killed by a grizzly bear, but if you have an opportunity to save the life of the bear and the person at the same time, why would you take that?
Public (voice T) Um, I, I— part of my exasperation here is from the, the trapping petition, and this is that, uh, it seems like we're, we're talking to you but you're not listening. Um, and yeah, it gets exasperating, it gets frustrating, and it gets maddening. Um, I just feel like that the science is there that supports the use of bear spray. The— I've had it stated in my written comments that the interagency Grizzly Bear Committee, they recommend the carrying of bear spray. Why wouldn't FWP do the same thing?
Public (voice T) I just don't understand the lack of continuity between federal and state agencies. If you're really concerned about wildlife, let's do the right thing here. Let's, um, I'll just leave it at that for, for the moment. Hopefully others will chime in.
Robinson Okay, thank you. I think that's a good enough presentation, and I will leave it to the commissioners for Questions, comments, and a motion. Commissioner Walsh.
Walsh Yep, thank you, Chair Robinson. There were pretty strong assertion there that without bear spray, this bear spray requirement, we would save the lives of of humans and grizzly bears. And I just want. I want to hear from the FWP staff if that is accurate. Were there any documented cases of grizzly bear mortality that would have been prevented by the individual encountering the bear having bear spray?
Robinson There's none that have been documented.
Walsh I mean, I know that there There are cases, recent cases of grizzly bear attack on hunters, but all those hunters had bear spray.
Quentin (staff) Yeah, on this side, I'm sorry, Chair, Vice Chair, on this side, this is Quentin, just hearing the question, and it's, we can wonder what might otherwise have happened, but that's, I think, in this room as close as we can come thinking about Instances where bear spray have been deployed over the previous seasons and has been successful at ending the conflict. But what to think might have happened otherwise, you know, and when a firearm is in place, if that's— if we hear the question that way, Vice Chair, that's— we haven't, other than speculation we might do here in the moment, we haven't put an analysis together of the sort that I understand you're asking for. Vice Chair.
Walsh Thank you. And just another observation. I've attended now a couple of the educational bear seminars, one in Lewistown and one down in Livingston, and the FWP staff, I think, has done an excellent job of educating the public, including allowing individuals to use training canisters of bear spray to get an understanding of how the bear spray is used.
Walsh And I think that, at least in my mind, is more important than a requirement that individuals carry bear spray because there's a— as everyone knows, the bear spray has an expiration date and can be, if you're not careful, you can be carrying around bear spray that's not even effective. With that, I would like to make a motion, Chair Robinson, if you'll allow me.
Robinson Yes, please.
Walsh To deny this petition, um, to require mandatory carrying of bear spray.
Public (voice AA) Second.
Robinson Okay, seconded by Commissioner Lane. Any other questions or comments before I go out for, um, public comment? Commissioner Lane, you have your hand up.
Lane Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. The previous comment by the commenter that these federal agencies—I think the key point is—is they're recommending it, as is the Montana FWP. They're not—not one of those is requiring it, and I think that to me that should be left up to the choice of. Of the individual, you know. And, and yes, hopefully they will make the right decision to, to try and deter the use of, of, you know, killing the, the animal. Um, but I've never seen where the government stepping in and requiring anybody to do has ever turned out really well.
Public (voice H) Thank you.
Robinson Any other comments or questions? Okay, I will go out for public comment. I will start with, uh, Tim Sayles, please. Okay, I— you're unmuted.
Public (voice D) Go ahead, Tim Sales.
Robinson Okay, I will come back to you. Um, Kim Bean, please.
Public (voice AC) Chair Robinson and Commission, this Kim Bean speaking on behalf of Wolf and Wildlife Advocates. You know, this is low-hanging fruit, and I'm finding it really difficult in understanding why this is— this is so difficult to understand. We're trying to protect human lives and trying to protect those of bears. The immediate response that I'm hearing from commissioners is, well, you got a gun. Well, I got news for you. I can pull out my bear spray. I can actually spray the bear 25 yards ahead of myself, 20 yards ahead. And there's no, there's, there's, there's no need for this. I can do it much quicker than you can your gun. The other thing is, why is killing our first response? It should not be our first response.
Public (voice AC) Our first response should be, how can we be in the backcountry and actually, you know, enjoy it without having to kill everything? So bear spray is, it's low-hanging fruit, guys. It's low-hanging fruit. I carry 2 cans with me every time I go in the backcountry. 2. It's not hurting me.
Robinson It's—.
Public (voice AC) I know it gives me that extra barrier, so I feel more comfortable and more confident. And so I, I personally, I'm just— I'm kind of appalled. But I say I, I 100% agree with this policy, and I think that low-hanging fruit.
Robinson Thank you.
Public (voice AC) Low-hanging fruit. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Um, let's try Tim Sales again. Okay, you are muted. Okay, you're unmuted. Try it. Not sure what's going on with Tim. We can't hear anything on this side, so I'm going to go with Chris Morgan, please.
Public (voice D) Chair, Commissioners, Chris Morgan, Montana Trappers Association. Um, first and foremost, I want to say I am a proponent of bear spray. I've used it, deployed it numerous times, seen it work. Um, it's not my only line of defense though. Uh, Commissioner Walsh, Walsh, I'd like to say thank you for your your question to the department. That was something that was weighing heavily on my mind is when has there ever been a mortality of a grizzly bear associated with trapping that bear spray could have stopped that mortality from happening? Did a lot of digging into that and I can't find a single instance where that would have been the case. I'd also like to point out, and I'm not trying to make a personal attack here, but one of the presenters is saying it's just common sense to carry bear spray in the backcountry.
Public (voice D) Um, I saw photos of said individual in bear country, presumably with a dog, and didn't see bear spray readily available on that person. So it really makes me question the authenticity of this petition and what, what it's actually trying to, you know, trying to come up with and trying to solve. Because if they don't believe in it, why should they believe in it for us? So that's all I really have to say. Um, again, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much and have a good, great day.
Robinson Thank you, Jeff. Darrow, please.
Public (voice AA) Yeah, thank you, Chair and fellow commissioners. Again, Jeff Darrow with Montana Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. I do hunt in grizzly bear country and I carry bear spray. My wife carries bear spray.
Robinson And my daughter carries bear spray.
Public (voice AA) You're right, it is common sense, but I don't need to be told to do that. Currently, no state makes the carry of bear spray mandatory. Matter of fact, in California, carrying bear spray in every national park in California is prohibited. The petition is selective in its application, targeting hunters and trappers. While completely ignoring other public land users such as hikers, fishermen, wildlife watchers, bikers, campers, berry pickers. I could go on and on. But carrying bear spray, it is carried by many hunters and can be used as a tool if needed.
Public (voice AA) But things like wind, weather, surprise all factor in its efficiency. This year, a hiker was killed in Glacier Park. Lost his life and then with an encounter with a grizzly bear. The official report states that a canister of bear spray was found at the scene and it had been deployed until empty. In 2023, a couple was killed by a grizzly bear in Banff National Park, and that scene also had an empty can of bear spray located at the scene. So in short, bear spray can and does fail. Most hunters in Montana that hunt grizzly bear country, we carry bear spray. Thank you, and we do not support this petition.
Robinson Thank you. Uh, Nancy Ostley.
Public (voice O) Hello, can you hear me?
Robin Bartsch (staff) Yes.
Public (voice O) Well, I am, um, shocked and appalled by some of what I hear this evening, but I just want to say I'm really proud to be associated with Clint Nagle and Mike Bader, who are making arguments for best science and with concern for the fact that grizzly bears are protected under the endangered species list.
Public (voice F) Right.
Public (voice O) And I'd like to say that Chris Morgan's Yes. Talking about, uh, his points. Well, I'm sorry to mention a name. Let me just say that the argument that the government must not step in because that doesn't work— if we didn't have police officers, how would that be in terms of, uh, having no It makes sense to require bear spray. I don't go out without it, and you might not see it in my hand on a video, but that is not anyway.
Public (voice O) I'm sorry, did you get that?
Robin Bartsch (staff) Yes.
Robinson Are you finished?
Public (voice O) Yes, I am. Sorry.
Robinson Okay. Thank you. Jeff, you still have your hand raised. If you could take your hand down, please. Jennifer, please.
Public (voice X) Hi, Jennifer Clark. Sorry, the last name doesn't seem to appear and I can't fix it. But as a backcountry recreationalist, a generalist, I'll say, call myself, traveling from states Wyoming up to Alaska, solo female. I asked for considering the amendments to this proposal. I think the spirit is made with good intentions, but like the other speaker, I do agree it should be— the scope should be broadened to backcountry users in general, not specifically looking after a certain demographic. But we do choose to go in the wild and taking accommodations to do so. I think it's just prudent.
Public (voice X) The safety concern is more related to the wild spaces that we're choosing to do an activity, whether it's backpacking or hunting or trapping or photography. I think it's about influencing situational awareness. Personally, at my age, I did grow up walking out into the woods by myself without my parents, you know, supervising me, but I don't I don't think that a lot of the population coming to Montana or visiting Montana may have grown up with some of the savviness that those maybe that have lived in the upper left longer developed at an early age.
Public (voice X) I would make some comparisons similar to the matches stated in the proposal, I believe we're calling it, about the orange vests and similarities to seatbelts while driving, helmets when our ATVs The trouble is, I think that I'm having a conflict with is that the unprepared human may find themselves in that encounter, but regretfully, when it's negative, the bear loses. And I think finding some mitigations for that is important. This may not be the solution, but I think we need to talk about it. We do require backcountry permits, licensing permits for hunting. We require hard-sided food storage requirements for hikers. We have dog rules in national parks where the dogs can't— dogs can only go where cars can go on pavement.
Public (voice X) And just perhaps it's time for change in those recreational areas and special management areas. And just in closing, you know, I frequent Yellowstone and I frankly do not— I make sure bear spray is on me if I'm not in line of sight of my truck. You know, it's just where I choose to be and I want to be, but I— Need to take accommodations, so I would not frown upon being strongly encouraged.
Robinson Thank you. Um, Celia M, please.
Public (voice N) Commission, Madam Chair, thank you. My name is Cecilia Mink and I'm from the Flathead Valley, and I am one of the petitioners that we provided you with extensive content, science, and documentation for your review. I do urge that you advance this rule. Some gentlemen have mentioned that there's no proof that bear spray had stopped something, but actually a study in the Journal of Wildlife Management found that bear spray stopped undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears. I'm more than happy to gather that specific information for you if required. It's probably in the petition of all the literature we gave you.
Public (voice N) Defense of life kills in Montana increased by 192% between 2009 and 2024, and these are only reported numbers, and of which many involved hunters. Several incidents have involved adult females and cubs, And when a mother is killed, the cubs have a poor chance of survival according to that mortality toll. And again, you know, bear spray is not 100%. It is like the seatbelt. It is like wearing hunter orange. At one time, hunter orange was not required, and then it became requirement, and that's all they were asking. But most importantly, this is a safety issue, like I said, and hunter orange was required for safety reasons.
Public (voice N) And this message is no different, and I would ask that you would advance this rule.
Robinson Thank you. Thank you, Don Wilkins, please.
Public (voice AI) Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners. Don Wilkins, Libby, Montana. Mandating bear spray is probably the most egregious. Nonsensical of a proposal that I've, that I've heard. Forcing hunters and trappers and guides and outfitters to have bear spray readily available is just not a good idea. Hunters already have enough stuff to pack around while hunting, and adding another mandated hunting gear that doesn't even have to be used is ridiculous. And I hear a lot of talk about grizzly bear habitat and territory.
Public (voice AI) Well, up in Region 1, there's no such thing as grizzly bear habitat. It is all grizzly bear habitat. We set aside thousands of acres for grizzly bear recovery plan, and they're not staying in that recovery plan area. They're moving out into other areas, having There's probably 4 or 5 on game cameras that we've had that aren't even close to where they're supposed to be. So please deny this petition.
Robinson Thank you. Will Israel, please.
Public (voice H) Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners. This is Will Israel, Executive Director for Montana Outfitters and Guides, for the record. We represent more than 3,000 licensed outfitters and guides, and we strongly oppose this petition. And we want to be clear, outfitters and guides carry bear spray and brief every client on its use. We support voluntary carry. We also want to echo the comment made by the Vice Chair Walsh at the opening of this petition agenda item that the department provides excellent training, and we've seen it in person at multiple events with bear attack simulators and spray employment training.
Public (voice H) The training is there, it is available, and pretty much everybody that goes into the field carries bear spray. We find it particularly offensive to our 100-plus-year-old Montana industry that outfitters and guides are singled out in this petition where the proposed penalty language holds licensed outfitters and guides responsible for the client behavior in the field and threatens license determination based on conduct they cannot reasonably control. That is vicarious liability without precedent in Montana's labor and industry framework, and it raises serious due process concerns.
Public (voice H) It was arrogant and offensive for the petitioners to create that specific language against a licensed, professional, and experienced industry in Montana. The science supports education and voluntary carry programs. It does not support a punitive mandate of this design. And for that, we urge the commission to deny this petition. We thank you, and we hope you have a wonderful afternoon.
Robinson Thank you. Alina Tillman, please. Sure.
Public (voice P) Good afternoon. Chair and commissioners, I just wanted to highlight some studies that, again, they're probably already cited, but just in the event that they're not, that there was a study out of Alaska, a 2008 study out of Alaska from 1985 to 2006 that was published again in 2008, found that the bear spray did stop undesirable behavior in the bears in 98% of cases. And also, as someone else had stated, that 98% of persons using bear spray in close-range encounters escaped uninjured. I obviously can't speak for the writers of the petition.
Public (voice P) I can understand kind of both and dialectically understanding that it may have come across as offensive. As someone that spends a lot of time in the backcountry, I did not read it that way. I certainly understand where someone would feel that way. But again, I echo others' statements about it just being kind of low, low, low-hanging fruit common sense. The one of the main ingredients in bear spray is capsaicin, which if anyone has ever encountered it or been OC sprayed in the face or for any kind of military training or anything like that, it is very potent. And so again, I assume no offense or anything like that was made in writing of this.
Public (voice P) Again, I just looked at it as just another tool to use. I understand a lot of people do already use it, but if we can prevent any deaths, why would we not do that? So I appreciate moving forward on this petition. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Mike Mershon, please.
Public (voice V) Chair Robinson, Commissioners, Mike Mershon, that's M-E-R-S-H-O-N. Again, representing Montana Wildlife Federation.
Public (voice F) Hello.
Public (voice V) MWF is sympathetic to the intent of this proposal, and we applaud the efforts to mitigate human-bear conflicts in non-lethal ways. However, we have, you know, some questions and concerns with the proposal, many of which have already been covered, whether or not this can actually be done without legislative action, the fairness of targeting a single user group, specifically given the, you know, the ever-increasing pressure our wildlife is faced by such a wide range of users on the landscape.
Public (voice V) MWS strongly supports and encourages all users of our public lands to— all users of our public lands recreating in bear country to carry bear spray and know how to use it. We commend and appreciate the ongoing efforts by FWP and others to educate the public on the benefits of bear spray and other best practices when living and recreating in bear country, and we'd be supportive of additional resources to bolster those education and outreach efforts even further. By the way, as a reminder, September is FWP's Bear Aware Month.
Public (voice V) One final point that I really want to highlight was made from a commissioner, it would be very useful for a department-led effort for deeper analysis of bear encounters and a public presentation of that information in a way that could inform future education opportunities for best practices. A great example of this type of analysis, just for our collective reference, would be the literature produced by the American Alpine Club, Accidents in North American Mountaineering. Thanks for the chance to comment, and I'd encourage us to think about better ways that we can continue to advocate for more education and awareness. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Larry Retray, please.
Public (voice AB) Hi, first Chair Robinson. First, I'd like to thank you for explaining for the reason for the meeting. I wasn't aware of that. I was looking at it more of the fact that. I'm off hunting and I had to— I came up to the top of a mountain. I've been dumped off the call 4 different times, managed to get back on. And, and that's part of the reason why I thought this should have been handled in August. But anyway, thank you for that. The one thing I'd like to mention is, is I've taught hunter's ed and bow ed for over 30 years, and we really propose and promote the use of bear spray. We teach how to use bear spray. We use the inert canisters. We show how it's done.
Public (voice AB) And we spend a lot of time, you know, making sure everyone's aware of it. However, I'm allergic to bear spray. I got a dose of it about 3 years ago, just a very minute amount. And I spent— I was miserable for a full day. I was the sickest I've ever been in my life. And who has the right to tell me that that's what I have to use to do it? The one lady mentioned that she uses that bear spray and she can spray it at 20 yards and, and, and feel secure. Well, I hate to tell you this, but the range of that bear spray isn't going to make 20 yards.
Public (voice AB) And the first one, recent information just released by the Fish and Game, is that bear spray, the first 1 second is the most powerful and has as much capsaicin in it as the remaining 6 seconds. And that's all there is in a can of bear spray. Thank you for the opportunity.
Robinson Thank you. Susan Billo, please.
Public (voice Z) All right. Hi there. Yeah, Madam Chair, Commissioners. First of all, you know, I agree Commissioner Walsh, Fish, Wildlife, and Parks has done an excellent job with the bear spray. I've participated in one of those, and I see many of them, and I think it's one of the best things we do, and I appreciate that they do that. And, you know, what's interesting is that I was listening to the earlier presentation on the amount of hunters where we're getting more from out of state versus in the in-state. Decreased. And, you know, I think many Montanans, just like some of the hunter groups have mentioned, they know the importance of carrying bear spray and they carry it.
Public (voice Z) But with this increase in out-of-state hunters, you know, we might want to make sure we address that. And for the hunters that felt that this was being disrespectful, it was not. I don't think it was meant that way at all. When I'm hiking, I I have bear spray. I worked in Yellowstone when I first moved out west. I was instilled with a healthy respect for bears, and I knew to make noise and all of that. I think why this is on hunters targeting them, so to speak, is because most hunters are trying to be more quiet. There are more— there's greater percentage of chances of Scaring a bear, catching it by surprise.
Public (voice Z) So I don't believe at all that it's meant to be disrespectful. It's just that hunters seem to be the ones where you have most of these encounters happening like this, because most bears will hear the humans and go away. They don't want anything to do with us. And I have seen articles in our papers about hunters shooting and killing bears, and they didn't have bear spray on them at all. They could have tried to use it, that type of thing. So anyways, I just want to mention those instances. And I know that Christy Clark is there, and I hope this is accurate.
Public (voice Z) I read it in a report that the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee has stated how bear spray requires less accuracy than bullets fired at a moving target, especially when you're under stress, that accidental discharges or bad aimed firearms can kill people while bear spray has never caused a fatality, and that bear spray leaves the bear alive and less likely to approach humans in the future. So if that is accurate, then, you know, that needs to be considered as well.
Public (voice P) Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Marie Buccaccio.
Public (voice Y) Hello.
Robinson Go ahead.
Public (voice Y) Okay, thank you. I definitely think that this should be mandated. I think that it should be mandatory that the bear spray is readily available. You know, I see a repeat pattern here. We don't want to inconvenience trappers. We don't want to inconvenience the hunters. We don't want to have them check their traps every 24 hours. We don't want them to carry bear spray. You know, I feel like the stack is really against our wildlife. At every, uh, at every turn here. It's, it's, it's a little bit crazy. Um, I, you know, I guess my question is, you know, why oppose it? Why can't they carry the spray?
Public (voice Y) I, I hear from a lot of the comments, most of them carry it anyway, so why not? And as far as, you know, the government stepping in and, and it never ends well, well, what about seat belts? And what about the laws that say you can't leave your kids or pets in hot cars? You know, those are all— government mandates, and they seem to work out pretty well. And as far as that outfitter saying that he can't possibly be responsible for his customers' actions and it's a liability, you know, I'm a teacher. When I take my kids out on a field trip, damn straight I'm responsible for their actions and what they do. So yeah, you're going to take people out in the field and you're the licensed professional, you are responsible for their actions. That's just the way that it rolls. And I do have a question for the Commission. Am I allowed to ask one?
Robinson No, just comments.
Public (voice Y) Okay. Well, I guess just to have it on the record, there was a comment that the Commissioner read all 600 public comments. I was just wondering, how do I get to read them? Is there a way? So I guess I'll have to find out if there's a way for me to read those comments. I'm assuming that there is a way to read them. But thank you for your time.
Robinson Thank you. If someone has already commented, could you please lower your hand? Glenda Meyer is next, please. Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for allowing me to speak.
Emily Cooper (staff) I just think this is a common sense issue.
Robinson It saves grizzly bears and saves lives, and probably everybody's already out. In the backcountry with bear spray anyway. If hunters and trappers feel like they're being attacked by this, at least move the, the movement forward and make some adjustments as you go along. It really is common sense and an easy thing to, to use to save wildlife and people.
Emily Cooper (staff) Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Casey York, please.
Public (voice S) Madam Chair, Commissioners, Casey York with Trap Free Montana. Trap Free Montana supports the bear spray petition. It does not say you have to use it, but must carry it. If employed correctly, it could help save lives of humans and bears. Don't you owe it then to both? There are also reports the bear spray did save the life of the human. Currently, the grizz is on the losing end with life and limb. A killed bear can be leaving behind dependent young as well. Seat belts did not used to be mandatory either. They also do not always save lives, but do for the majority.
Public (voice S) Why does FWP recommend and teach the use of bear spray if it's not effective? I'll tell you, I've been sprayed and can vouch for just how bad it stings. In addition, hunters and trappers provide attractants through meat, bait, and carcasses. Therefore, they're more at risk. Some say the sound of a hunter's bullet actually serves as a dinner bell to grizzlies. Hunters and trappers already carry various gear— rifles, handguns, catch poles, scopes, traps, bait, Bear spray, size of a can, is not a major handicap to add. However, we do support mandatory bear spray applied to anyone recreating in and near occupied grizzly habitat.
Public (voice S) Lastly, it sure seems like anything that may inconvenience, inconvenience hunters and trappers and save or support wildlife continues to fail. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Um, Julie Gala, please. Okay, you're unmuted.
Public (voice Q) Go ahead.
Robinson I'll come back to you. Mark Cooke, again, if you have already commented, please lower your, your hand.
Public (voice F) Chair, Commissioners, Mark Cooke, M-A-R-C-C-O-O-K-E, with Wolves of the Rockies. A lot of what I'm gonna say has already been touched on, but I, I think it's important. FWP itself tells people entering bear country to carry bear spray and to know how to use it. Whatever the decision you make today, folks, about carrying bear spray, whether it's mandatory or otherwise, we hope the commission sends an unmistakable message: preventing a dangerous encounter is better for hunters, it's better for the public, and it's better for bears than dealing with the consequences Afterwards.
Public (voice F) And I want to touch on briefly, just, uh, real— really quickly, and I'm aging myself a little bit here, but it's been mentioned before, seat belts weren't always in cars. And I can remember as a young person not having seat belts, but they've done so much good and they cost so little. And there's a parallel between seat belts and safety and bear spray and safety. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Okay, let's try Julie Gala again. Okay, you go ahead. You're unmuted, so try it. No, we're not hearing anything. Okay, Glenda, did you already go? I'm sorry. I apologize. I'm still here. Yes, and I lowered my hand. Okay, it's still up on my screen. Let me get that. Thank you. Uh, Ben Lamb, please.
Public (voice AG) Madam Chair, members of the Commission, uh, sorry for the delay there. My unmute took a second.
Robinson It's fine.
Public (voice AG) Just wanted to reinforce what Montana Trappers, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, and Montana Outfitters and Guides have mentioned and really want to commend the agency for the work that they've done on education. Somebody, you know, somebody who has lived most of his life in grizzly bear country and has, you know, had a couple of close encounters, Bear spray is really never that far from me when I'm in that country.
Public (voice AG) But, you know, I think as we've seen with the non-lead ammunition discussion, education can really move the needle on this without creating what is felt like an overstep by the government telling you what to do. So would really encourage the agency to continue what they're doing and lean in on education. It is incredibly helpful. It does move the needle significantly, and we would ask that you deny this petition. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Okay, Julie, I'm going to give you one more chance. Okay, go ahead.
Public (voice N) Keeps—.
Public (voice U) Okay, can you hear me?
Emily Cooper (staff) Yes.
Robinson Okay, thank you.
Public (voice U) It keeps muting me after the unmute. All right, good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners. My name is Julie Gala, and I'm a carnivore conflict specialist in southwest Montana working with People and Carnivores. We work in communities across western Montana preventing conflict with bears and other carnivores using non-lethal tools, including bear safety education and bear spray trainings. My request today on behalf of People and Carnivores is that you approve the petition and either enact the bear spray requirement directly from the Commission, or alternatively, Select Alternative A, initiating the MAPA rulemaking process. We submit under Section 87-1-130, the Commission has the authority to set wildlife policy and establish hunting and trapping rules.
Public (voice U) However, if you prefer to initiate an additional public process, we would applaud the Commission to do so. This meeting has shown that there are many details and concerns to discuss around this mandate that are important in the conversation for Evidence supports action. Grizzlies are recolonizing western Montana, and for the benefit of both hunters and bears, hunters should be required to carry bear spray. Defensive life kills are moving faster than the bear population trends can explain. And to be clear, all recreators should carry bear spray, but hunters are at a specific higher risk than most. They move quietly. They're often alone. They move at dawn and dusk. These are all things that FWP specifically warns against to other recreators.
Public (voice U) Bear spray is a proven safety tool and is already recommended by both state and federal agencies, and requiring hunters and trappers to carry it will improve safety for people and be a meaningful contribution to Montana's celebrated culture of outdoor recreation and wildlife conservation. Improving the safety standards in bear country will also further demonstrate Montana's competency and willingness to manage grizzly bears in the future. Thank you for your time today and taking comment. We look forward to future discussions on this topic.
Robinson All right, thank you. Is there anyone in the regional offices who would like to speak?
Robin Bartsch (staff) Chair Robinson, we have one in Region 2.
Public (voice R) Okay, great.
Robinson Thank you.
Public (voice AH) Yes. Hello again. This is Mary Price, P-R-I-C-E, Zula. I am a listed petitioner for the bear spray petition before the Commission. And I want to just begin with noting that attached to this petition were, I believe, 10 attachments, which are articles describing situations where bear spray stopped attacks and saved lives. So I would encourage you to look at those.
Public (voice AH) So I think, again, you've heard me say that the 85% of grizzly bear deaths are human-related, and one particular group of those human-related grizzly killings are what are termed defense of life killings. This is where grizzlies are shot by people claiming self-defense. And these have increased sevenfold in recent years within the Northern Continental Divide ecosystem, growing at 5 times the rate of the grizzly population itself. And that, that number is based on Fish, Wildlife, and Parks data.
Public (voice AH) And in many of these defensive life killings, the person involved was not carrying bear spray or did not have it readily accessible. For example, in November 2025, Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks confirmed in a local news report that 3 grizzlies, a female and 2 cubs, were shot in the Seeley Lake area by 2 hunters that were not carrying bear spray when they encountered the bears while attempting to retrieve a mule deer they had killed earlier that day.
Public (voice AH) That is the kind of situation that— and that is the kind of situation that, in my opinion, is giving the hunting community a very bad reputation. This petition is not in any way a criticism of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks bear spray training. I actually think it's pretty good, but it's not— it's not working. In these small number of cases, like I just pointed out in Sylvie Lake.
Public (voice AH) So the purpose, the way I see this petition and the proposed rule, is that it provides game wardens the tools to deal with the small minority of hunters and/or trappers that are causing—.
Robinson Your time is up.
Public (voice AH) The mortality of these deaths.
Public (voice R) Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Are there any other commenters? All right, any comments or questions from the commissioners before I go to vote? Commissioner Wargo?
Wargo Yeah, thank you, Chair. It was good hearing from everybody, and, uh, Um, yeah, I just wanted to, I guess, state that I can fully understand the, uh, intent behind this proposal. Um, I do have some, some concerns with it, and, you know, especially I, from an overly practical standpoint, I guess, uh, with some of the legal concerns that were brought up, I guess, over, um, penalties associated with this. You know, we might be in a you know very real scenario where we would be having a policy that could go forward without any teeth behind it.
Wargo If you look to other states, it's not an exact corollary, but there's a lot of other states where you know post post harvest surveys that go out in Montana. You know, we get phone calls on those. Those are voluntary. There's other states that have elected to make those types of surveys mandatory, and then they. They don't have teeth for enforcement that goes along with it, and they've actually seen a decrease in compliance. So I think I think the education is working. I think the department has done an exceptional job. My my inbox goes off all the time on different bear aware events and training and whatnot, and I think I mean they just the vast majority of hunters embrace bear spray.
Wargo But I I do. I do have concerns mostly from an unintended consequence standpoint that I think you very rarely see a decrease in utilization if made mandatory without an actual penalty. So thank you.
Robinson Okay. Clinton Nagle did not have his hand raised before. I see he has his hand raised. I will let you have your 2 minutes if you choose.
Public (voice T) Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I was just— I was going to ask, uh, will the presenters get a— maybe this is it, a final chance?
Robinson That's it. Yep.
Public (voice T) Okay. Um, well, maybe others will have something to say too, but I, I just want to say that, um, uh, in closing, that the Gallatin Wildlife Association Does recognize that Fish, Wildlife, and Parks does an outstanding job in training and education of the use of bear spray. That is not what this is about, but that is a necessary element of what we're promoting here.
Public (voice T) But it was mentioned that Um, it's up to the choice of the individual, that it should not be mandated. Well, if, if you're out in the backcountry and you don't have a can of bear spray, canister bear spray, you don't have a choice. You've got one choice, and that's to use a weapon. And so the choice is, I guess, whether you want to carry it or not. But at least if you had— if it was mandated to carry when you were out in a situation where you, uh, encounter a grizzly bear unexpectedly, that you have a choice there.
Public (voice T) And for all we know, we can't guarantee anything, but for all we know, that choice right there could save the life of a grizzly bear. And I don't understand why this entity, uh, is so against that. Um, secondly, um, we agree with what has been said, or at least I do. Um, I'll speak on behalf of myself at the moment, that any individual who was out in grizzly bear habitat needs to carry bear spray.
Public (voice T) If they're a mountain biker, just a hiker, uh, on horseback, whatever, they should have bear spray with them. The reason that I'm presupposing here, but one reason we did not include those groups into this petition, is the minute we did, we would probably be castigated for saying we don't The agency doesn't have the authority to mandate bear spray on non-hunters or trappers. That may or may not be the case.
Public (voice T) I'm sure that presents a whole other legal argument whether or not you had the— would have the authority to mandate that and enforce it. So that's why it's not included here. It's not that we don't agree with it. I personally do agree with it. Finally, I guess it was said that the feds don't mandate to carry a bear spray, so why should the state? I mean, come on here. The feds aren't going to mandate things like this. The feds don't mandate hunter orange. Why would you expect the feds to mandate issues so personal as this.
Public (voice T) I remember when the, the issue's been brought up about, uh, the use of seat belts in vehicles. I remember when that was brought up decades ago, the outcry of public opposition to that— big government.
Robinson And so that's— thank you.
Public (voice T) Okay, thank you.
Robinson I do apologize. Usually the timer, we can hear it. This meeting We have not been able to hear it. Okay, commissioners, anything else? Okay. All right, we have a motion on the table. All those in favor of the motion to deny the petition signify by saying aye.
Robin Bartsch (staff) Aye.
Robinson All opposed, same sign. Motion carries. Does anyone need a break before we go into the next?
Wargo Go for a quick break.
Robinson Okay, what time is it? It's 4 o'clock. Let's just do like a 5-minute break. We'll cut— well, it's like 3:58. We'll come back at 4:05, please.
Public (voice AE) Thank you.
Burrows Uh, Terry, you're unmuted.
Public (voice AC) Yeah.
Public (voice X) All right.
Robinson I just can't— the commissioners, if you could turn your videos on when you get sat down, that way I can tell you're here.
Burrows Madam Chair?
Public (voice AH) Yes.
Burrows Just so you know, Susan did text and said— texted me and said she was having some— she was on cell phone and said she was having difficulty.
Robinson So, okay. Is it just her video? She is muted, so I didn't know if it's just her video or if she's completely gone.
Burrows I think it might be completely coming and going based on her cell reception.
Robinson Okay, sounds good. We'll go ahead and get started again. Are we unmuted?
Public (voice H) Yes.
Initiation of Administrative Rulemaking Process – Predator Management Policy
Robinson Yep. Okay, I will, uh, turn it over to legal to open this one, I guess, if they're— if legal is ready.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Madam Chair, we're ready.
Robinson Okay.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Um, yes, Madam Chair, members of the commission, this last, uh, agenda item—.
Robinson What'd you do to the camera?
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Is a little bit different than, well, maybe a lot bit different than certainly the other things we've been doing. And I apologize for however this sort of came across on the public sphere about what it is.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Tried to get that addressed in the P&I sheet, but really what the intention of this agenda item is, at least from the department staff perspective, was to have an opportunity for you as a commission in a meeting to ideally, hopefully provide us a little guidance to help you to the extent that's the direction the commission wants to go in the development of, of a predator management policy, for lack of a better term.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) As indicated in the, the P&I sheet, maybe could have been No, more specific in directing back to conversations at prior commission meetings, but several commissioners have made reference to the concept of ungulate districts of concern in, in prior public meetings when dealing with other specific agenda items like big game, deer, elk, antelope reg set, lion reg set, bear reg sets.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) And so, and as part of that, there's been conversation about maybe coming up with a more focused, specific policy on, on predator management in the context of how that rolls into broader wildlife species management. So it's really not just a Commissioner Wargo thing. I put him on the agenda because he's done a really good job of of really, you know, kind of providing us with some of the more specific ideas he has in mind.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) But, but all of that really being said, and I certainly defer to if Quentin had anything to add, from the standpoint of putting this on the agenda, I think what we're looking for on the staff side is to have you give us as much, you know, guidance collectively as a commission. As to yeah, this is something we'd be we would like to to pursue further and have it developed in a more refined way so that we could bring it back to you, which again would be a very a front end conversation about this is what we're talking about.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Would you like to advance it into a map or rulemaking process, which again would be a draft if that was what the commission wanted to do? It would take that next step and then. Again, be more public comment opportunity on what that might look like. So to wrap that all up, it's just a very, very front-end agenda platform for discussion amongst all of you as commissioners with hopefully, I think, and I defer to Mr. Kudla about what we're kind of ideally hoping to get from a staff perspective. To be able to help you advance that if that is what the Commission's inclination is.
Robinson I think that is important that we kind of know what you need to know so we refine it a little bit more.
Quentin (staff) Yeah, Chair, this is Quentin. If I might add to Ms. McEnroe's comments, and others from staff might also Chime in with your tolerance as well, Chair. And what I would add, just given where we are at this first point in process, for Jeff's comments, you know, from my perspective as a scribe listening to this conversation, certainly happy to hear any questions from staff, but primarily I'll be focusing on my perspective, you know, the functionality, the application, the implementation, what you're trying to achieve in the context of an endpoint, really.
Public (voice H) Thank you.
Quentin (staff) To the season-setting venues that Jeff talked about. Certainly at some point specific language becomes a very big part of this, but going from conversation narrative to policy language that's specific in intent but flexible in application, and then further putting on the layer of arm roll language, I would say, in vocabulary and formatting.
Wargo Thank you.
Quentin (staff) I'm not so much focused on literal language, but you'll see me focus in my answers and in my questions and my hearing efforts, my listening efforts to understand again the functionality that the Commission's looking for, trusting that we can do a good job as staff writing that functionality and putting it in a policy format and an ARM format. Next go-round, we'd have a good place where all of us could then start a second conversation with that hopefully good focus that we put in.
Evan Klein (staff) Thank you.
Quentin (staff) Thank you, Sheriff.
Robinson Okay, Commissioner Wargo, do you feel comfortable at this point?
Wargo Okay, yeah, yeah, thank you, Madam Chair, and I, I appreciate, uh, uh, both Jeff and, uh, Quinton's introduction there. Um, yeah, just take a, take a second to address, uh, the folks listen— listening in. I, I think Jeff did a good, good job of this. Um, Undoubtedly, I've been a vocal individual on my stance on, I think we need, you know, maybe a little bit more broad framework introduced here. I guess still new enough to the commission that I was a little unsure on the procedural steps and just found out, you know, recently that I would be, or that I was on the agenda, you know, present this.
Wargo So, you know, at the point that I found out that, I put pen to paper and I tried to determine what an ask out of the department would be. I understand that that got sent out to the public a little bit at a late hour, but I did want to try to at least get my thoughts on paper. That supplemental document that was Posted to the Commission website. You know, that's my attempt at articulating what an ask would be. And, you know, that's not a— that's not a collective foregone conclusion. You know, the Commission as a collective has not had yet an opportunity to weigh in on this.
Wargo So I would anticipate, you know, comment on that, that supplemental document. But I guess— To circle back, you know, what, what would the, what would the ask be here? I'm, I guess I'm looking for just intentionality, you know. I'm looking for an intentional predator management framework. Um, I don't think predator management should be arbitrary. I don't think it should be uniform.
Wargo Um, I think, uh, you know, if we have areas where ungulate populations are struggling, but habitat could support more animals, and predation is, you know, likely contributing to an additive mortality. I think there'd be benefit for a more deliberate framework. I think that that would require kind of a coordinated approach off across multiple species. You know, right now it's definitely there's a struggle that I've, that I've come across where, you know, different dates we, we discuss, um, you know, different species, and it's, it's difficult to take a coordinated approach.
Wargo You know, conversely though, I think in that, in that framework, I'm also opening the, the door to, you know, really, um, you know, to that intentional management, uh, to where if there is, um, you know, indication where where that predation is compensatory and, you know, isn't additive in nature, that, you know, maybe there would be a little bit more tolerance on the landscape for some of the large carnivores. So anyway, you know, the goal isn't simply fewer predators. It's just that healthy sustainable predator-prey ratio, you know, tied to, you know, measurable biological Objectives is kind of my my thought there.
Wargo I went into more detail in that in that supplemental document, but I guess happy to answer questions or turn it over for broader discussion.
Robinson I'm sure there's going to be questions because it's really not refined. I guess it's just asking the commission what you would like. To what direction you'd like to go, if you want to go in that direction. Commissioner Burrows.
Burrows Madam Chair, Commissioners, I think it's important that we develop, we have management plans for other species, for example, Hopefully everybody's looked at like our mule deer management plan, very methodical and laid out. You know, we break it into regions or areas and then we use long-term averages as the criteria for how we manage those. If you're above or below a certain threshold on long-term averages, that sets our management methodology. Are we going to be a standard, a restrictive or a liberal harvest, I think it makes sense.
Burrows And with all the controversy around the way we've had both season setting for predators and ungulates, I think what I've heard from either side of the aisle when they're frustrated with it is they don't understand, there's no metrics, and there's not predictability there. I think if we can add that predictability from both the predator and the prey standpoint. We have ungulates that are depressed in an area, we can pull that lever. I mean, that should, that should just guide all of our management. If we have depressed ungulates, we pull that lever of let's reduce B tags, let's potentially increase pressure on a predator that may have that impact on there, whether it's wolves, lions, or bears.
Burrows And having that, that for the commission, for the public, for the department to have that predictability on when we see a metric being hit or a long-term average or an objective not being met, we pull a lever for a certain period of time and then it just reverts back once we hit that metric again. And I think it would get rid of some of the, what some consider the arbitrariness of Walking into a season setting meeting and saying, "Do we want? I propose 60 wolves in this region. Why one 58? Why one 62?" All right, let's settle on 59 and a half wolves then in this region.
Burrows And I think we can get rid of some of that if we develop a management strategy with metrics and guidelines to it.
Robinson Commissioner Gagnon. Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners. I would echo Commissioner Burrows' comments about a balanced approach and one that takes into consideration all of the species on the landscape, not a single species within a season setting. So I think one of the things my request would be is to look at a broader scope of the impact of one species on another. Commissioner Burrows, you still have your— Commissioner Brooke.
Brooke I apologize, I've had nothing but terrible experience with my Verizon coverage today, so I apologize. But I want to, I want, I want to echo everything that Jeff, Commissioner Burrows, and Commissioner Gagnon are saying it's very frustrating when we come into these season settings and we're focused on one predator and we have— we don't have enough information. We only have 3 weeks or less to come up with really to substantiate to the public why we're making these decisions.
Brooke And then we come the next year, and we have a whole nother, a whole nother set of quotas that we have to make a decision in a very small space with a limited amount of data. And then it just becomes more and more polarized. And I think we've all seen the polarization that happens before and after these season setting meetings, because one side's saying that we have ungulates are, are under-objective, and one side saying they're over-objective and we need more predators.
Brooke And I think just for our decision space, it's better— the more information that we have about populations and balance of these populations, the easier it is for us to, A, make the decision and, B, explain it to the public. So I support, I support doing something that gives us better decision-making data.
Robinson Commissioner Lane.
Lane Thank you, Madam Chair. I believe Commissioner Brooke just hit the nail on the head. I completely agree with her. The more information we can have, the better.
Wargo We just—.
Lane It kind of is going to go back to measurable information, measurable data that we can actually get. Our biggest concern out here, at least year-round, is coyote population, how it's affecting our, our deer and antelope, uh, populations. But I just want to make sure we have a good way of measuring it so that we do not have another thing where we have some type of a metric to be able to say what the population of the coyotes are. And that's— I think that's going to be a tough thing to come by, or how we go about creating that relationship on, on, you know, how do we control these animals. So, but I do agree with that we do need better information to be able to make these decisions.
Lane So thank you.
Robinson I guess I have a question for Quentin or whoever you want to put that to, but we don't have authority over coyotes. So I would see it more of the predators that FWP actually has authority over. I'm not sure. I guess that's really not a question, that's a comment, but it's kind of a question. Do— can we do— can we include predators that FWP does not have authority over?
Quentin (staff) Chair, this is Quentin in response. You are correct in laying down that context. The department does have history, so there's a Unlimited season setting, or unlimited season, unlimited harvest operation options for coyotes right now. That's how that circumstance manifests itself, 365 days of the year, whatever, you know, wide means of take, etc., etc. The, the, there is history in the department of additional application of harvest pressure with, you know, aerial, aerial pursuit of coyotes, not with hunting, but with staff or contracted services.
Quentin (staff) In specific areas that, consistent with this conversation, where, you know, fawns per 100 does are low, or, you know, one or both of those species. So there are additional efforts, you know, that's, it's additional in the context that it's out-of-season setting, it's additional in the context that you're not merely authorizing a bag limit or a means of take through a license, it's additional also, additional context in the In the sense of, you know, how do you, how do you, how do you, how does the agency marshal that effort in time that's consistent with the decision-making context?
Quentin (staff) So there, there, there is room to think about coyotes, but you are, and there are, you are correct in your, in your foundational assessment of coyotes relative to authority for the Commission, relative to the difference in other conversations with game species with hunters and trappers. That's not to say that coyotes can't be part of this conversation, Chair.
Robinson Okay. Do we as a Commission have the authority to ask you to do that, or is that an internal agency decision?
Quentin (staff) I'll take, Chair, this is Quentin again, I'll take a first stab and would look to Jeff and the Director to follow up and Deputy. Now there is a line here, again, in the difference between allocating a bag limit or a season structure or a license, you know, per hunter or per trapper. Pretty straightforward. Everybody in this conversation has a lot of experience with that. At some place to pick up coyotes where it's, hey, let's go ahead and let's do one of those site-specific efforts to apply additional harvest from the air agency or contracted services.
Robinson You—.
Quentin (staff) I think you said it well, Director, when you say— Could the commission ask that? Because it's going to, it's going to speak to additional fiscal resources, additional planning and whatnot. And then, and, and I think that is the way to think about it at the table here today. Is that something the commission could ask the department to pursue? Um, I think that's the way we would see that.
Quentin (staff) And then the answer, understanding it as treating it as a question in this conversation, the answer would for today depend, you know, if there's, if there are fiscal resources there, the agreements could be put in place, you know, um, contracted services and the landowners that it might work with, um, you know, you could work to that end, but also recognizing that there may be situations where fiscal resources, the time of year, the contract agreement, you know, the arrangements with the landowners that you'd be flying over couldn't come together in good time. So, right, some way to coarsely think about that moving forward. But to your point, you're different from season setting for lions or black bears, for example.
Public (voice AH) Right.
Lane Madam Chair, may I follow up?
Public (voice AI) Please.
Lane I, I guess I, I completely understand that, that this is out of our current purview. However, when it comes to these Angela areas of concern, I think it's hard not to say that these— they are not affecting, uh, these populations. So it's somehow this— they need to be incorporated into this. Um, but that's whether that's open Thank you.
Robinson Commissioner Wargo?
Wargo Yeah, just, just real, real quick, uh, to address, uh, Commissioner Lane's, uh, comment on some of the measurable stuff. I think that would be, you know, some of the policy language down the road, but we do have long-term data, you know, calf recruitment, fawn recruitment, you know, some of those other really heavy, heavy indicators. I would love it if there was a peer-reviewed study conducted that, you know, preceded every commission decision that we had, it would make it very, very clear. But I do think there is a lot of existing data that could be leveraged at a higher level, but that would probably be at the next step is where I would probably envision that.
Public (voice AE) Commissioner Burrows?
Burrows I think the commission put in some intent and maybe expanding on social aspects of some of our decisions as well, because we have to admit that season setting for wolves this last time had a lot of social aspects to it. We took some spots and said it's more palatable to have a more aggressive harvest in this area, and vice versa. We took an area that was not biologically justified, recommended by biologists or experts, and took a 313 and 316 quota and dropped it from 3 to 1. No, zero biological explanation for it, wasn't recommended, and we did that.
Burrows So I, I think it's important that we have those areas, and if that's the goal or the direction we want, then let's put that on paper. Let's say in the units around the park, we want to have a, a very conservative approach to how we manage predators there. And we want to have lower quotas maybe than what's recommended, so that way folks aren't frustrated around that area who wonder why it dropped from 3 wolves to 1 wolf without a biological justification.
Burrows Vice versa, in Regent, maybe back into Region 2, some areas in Region 1 in the Bob Marshall where we say we're going to be more aggressive maybe than what is recommended biologically, and And get after some areas where we have ungulate areas of concern. I think that's probably the most important aspect to me as well.
Burrows So we have these metrics, but if there's an area where we're not going to use the metrics and we're going to consider economic businesses in the area, the social aspects to it, that we also have that somehow incorporated into that plan, because I'd hate to have a plan that hamstrings us too tightly to where you get boxed into a decision that you don't necessarily want to make? For example, the 2 that I just referenced, 313 and 316, and some areas in Region 1 that have significant ungulate issues.
Robinson I mean, I personally would not be in support of something that would tie our hands Because we do have to take— I mean, we have to look at our comments and we have to take into account all of that, and social is one of them. And so I, I— even if we have metrics, we still have to look at the big picture on every decision we make. But is there— I, I'm gonna turn back to Quentin, um, maybe Ken.
Robinson I mean, what kind of motion would it take to give you the information or the guidance that you need if we did choose to move forward with what is being discussed?
Quentin (staff) Sure, I'll take a first stab, and then I'm looking to Ken even as I say that. I hear the question, and the way I would answer right now is the kind of conversation Thank you.
Public (voice O) Thank you, Chair.
Quentin (staff) I just want to say, you know, the information that you're speaking, you know, with each other, public and staff here listening to that, we've been scribing. This is exactly the kind of stuff I thought, um, we would want to hear, you know, the endpoints, you know, the things, you know, where, where is coyotes in this? Where is definitive research, site-specific research? Where does that exist? Where does it, where does it stop? Where do you have to extrapolate from there? Um, something that, you know, Chair, just as an example, My response here, something that's guiding but also leaves some discretion for, you know, the big picture, um, things that maybe the policy weren't— wasn't planning on, but for some reason it showed up.
Quentin (staff) So all of this, I've got 2 pages of notes, and I'll just say it this way: if we were to stop here, I think we have plenty of fodder to come back with a draft product. I'm not saying it needs to stop right here, but we— you've already given us, on top of Commissioner Wargo's start point with that supplement. It's this kind of stuff that we were hoping to get, Chair, recognizing that the next meeting, if you do choose to move forward, a reasonable expectation for all stakeholders in the conversation that it would have— there'd be a more refined piece of product on a piece of paper that everybody could read and further refine in that conversation and choose to move forward with edits or not. And I'll make room for other staff to make comments.
Burrows Yeah, no, I can— this is Ken.
Quentin (staff) I concur. I think that The paper by Commissioner Wargo kind of gives a good outline of the intent and things like, you know, focused on ungulate populations of concern.
Burrows That's, that's the kind of stuff that helps us focus in on, on what, what specifically you're looking at.
Robinson And I just want to say we'll have several bites of this apple. This is a— I mean, the MAPA process is a long one and it's a really transparent one. So we'll have lots of opportunities to come back to the table and hear concerns and, and move forward from there too.
Public (voice O) Right.
Public (voice P) I just—.
Robinson Yeah, right.
Public (voice X) I just—.
Robinson It'll be a sausage-making exercise.
Public (voice U) Right.
Robinson I just want us to have the correct first step into the process. But Commissioner Brooke?
Quentin (staff) Yeah.
Robinson Go ahead.
Brooke Madam Chair, thank you. You know, one of the other Things that I want to talk about is when, when we're doing these season settings, whether it's for ungulates or predators, a lot of times there's factors other than predators that are a reason why you have a decline in your populations. Maybe it's disease, or maybe it's changes in habitat that are changing that. And I'd like that to be something that—.
Robinson Right.
Brooke Is included in the data that comes to us. Because when we go home, somebody calls you up and says, well, you didn't get the lion population down enough in this, in this one hunting district. And then when you go back to the biologist, you find out, well, it's not really a lion problem, it's, it's a drought problem.
Public (voice P) Yeah.
Brooke And so those are things that I would like to have at our disposal when we're making these decisions is what's wrong or what's, what's happening on the ground. And we don't really get the heat of that until you get home and then everybody calls you up and says, what were you even thinking?
Robinson Okay, Commissioner Lane.
Lane Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to make sure I'm understanding this process right now. We are just strictly giving the FWP the authorization to move forward on creating a draft, which we then will eventually initiate the rulemaking process. Is that correct? This is not technically the beginning of that process. I mean, the, the beginning, the first step to whether then the second step is when we will approve the amendments, and then, you know, if it has to keep going on. This is just strictly to create the draft. Is that correct?
Quentin (staff) Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Robinson And honestly, Commissioner Lane, that is with the way it is with all this rulemaking. First step is nothing. I mean, you know, it's just kind of like, well, yeah, we want to move forward with this idea.
Lane Yeah, right. But I guess where I was going with it, this is not the— this is not the formal This is not the formal draft today that we're putting forth. We are just asking them to put forth the draft, which will then begin the rulemaking process, which is how every rulemaking is. Right, right. I guess, yeah. This is not this is not the same as it as petition that brought forth to us. This is okay. Thank you.
Robinson Yeah.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Yeah, Madam Chair, Commissioner Lane. That's that's a good observation in that.
Burrows This is—.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) This really is a front-end step to what is— what you've seen, I guess, at least more recently in the form of rulemaking things where we're actually bringing you a draft MAPA notice document that looks like it would look when it went to the Secretary of State. This is really— it's ahead of that. And we're able to do that in some of those other cases to just— because We, you know, whatever that rule or amendment or whatever might look like is already something that's pretty compact, linear. We already may have discussed it.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) We're able to package it that way and then just bring it to you and then solicit that public comment on the front end of that process as to whether or not you want to advance it into another process with more public comment. This is really just that foundational conversation about Is the commission does the commission want to do this in terms of taking this on as kind of a policy initiative? And that's and if so, what are what are some of the details that that very first stab at a draft rule notice might look like that we then bring back to you? And at that opportunity, at that time, it may be close to what you want. It might not be close to what you want, and there's still that opportunity there to.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Amend that, refine it, and, and, and send it on into the process. So we really are at the very front end of just trying to develop something for, for going down this path eventually with the, with a more formal MAPA process.
Lane Okay, thank you.
Robinson Uh, Commissioner Gagnon.
Public (voice F) Sure.
Robinson Yeah, Madam Chair, thank you. I just wanted to echo Commissioner Brooke's comment about including Enough information for us to really make informed decisions. The example that I will use in Region 5 is a concern with the rabbit population and how that impacts the bobcat population, which rabbits aren't necessarily something we're going to season set or regulate, but it does have an impact on the season setting for bobcats. So I would like enough information from all the influences. Commissioner Burke.
Burrows Sorry, maybe just so I'm clear, I think if you can get it through the dense commissioner in Region 2, then everybody should be able to understand it. But MAPA rule in our proposed motion A MAPA rule notice, a draft rule notice versus a draft predator management policy. Are those the same thing? So this— we're authorized, at least the proposed motion authorized staff to prepare a draft MAPA rule notice or a predator management policy. Is that just a notice that you're going to go out and develop a predator management policy?
Public (voice T) No.
Burrows Policy, or is that actually a draft ready to introduce to the public in MAPA process predator management policy draft?
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Yeah, Madam Chair, Commissioner Burrows, it's— it would be the preparation of what would be a draft MAPA notice of the policy. And I guess to my earlier comments, we may not hit a line drive with that. That may be something that's brought back. I mean, we're going to do our level best to get that to look the way you as a commission envision, you know, in terms of considering these various factors we've talked about today. But, you know, that just— I just would envision bringing that back. And maybe— and to my earlier comment, maybe it's not close enough at that point.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) I think we'd, you know, you guys as commissioners would have the opportunity to tweak with that, make it, you know, revise it however you want to look. But I, you know, did envision it at least taking the, taking the form of a draft notice. That doesn't mean you got a thumbs up, thumbs down at that point. You're in a box that it either has to go or can't go to the Commission. It's not like a petition. It's your own MAPA rule notice. So you have every opportunity to work with that once you get it.
Robinson Madam Chair, follow-up? Sure, and I would entertain a motion if somebody wanted to do it too.
Burrows Again, just because of the density out of Region 2, is it synonymous, or is a draft MAPA rule notice synonymous with draft predator management policy, or are those 2 different things? Because I'm struggling to understand what exactly is coming back from the department. You're saying a draft MAPA rule notice. Is that a fully drafted predator management plan by the department for us to then review and the public to review to decide if we want to forward that to the MAPA rulemaking process?
Robinson Yes.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Go ahead, Commissioner.
Quentin (staff) Yeah, Chair, Commissioner Burrows, this is Quentin. Yeah, just to restate, uh, and ask you the question, what Jeff said earlier. Yeah, the content— the vehicle would be the MAPA rule notice. Um, the content would be the draft, a first stab at draft language for Commission predator management policy.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Commissioner Wargo?
Wargo Yeah, Chair, would you entertain a motion, please? Okay, thanks. And, uh, Jesse, I did just, uh, hit an email on, on this language for you. So, uh, I move the Fish and Wildlife Commission authorize FWP staff to prepare a draft MAPA rule notice for predator management policy for the commission's consideration at a future meeting in accordance with the direction outlined in this discussion, in addition to the direction provided in the supplemental document entitled Development of a predator management policy.
Emily Cooper (staff) I'll second.
Robinson Okay, Commissioner Brooke second. Any chance of putting that up on the screen?
Robin Bartsch (staff) Yeah.
Wargo Okay, so sorry, Jesse, I just, uh, I sent you another email. I'd want— I did add one line, I guess, that it wouldn't just be that supplemental document. I guess I was trying to cast a wider net in accordance with the direction outlined in this discussion. Maybe there's better Better language for this was to not over.
Robinson And please, Commissioner Wargo, so she can add it. It's too tough to try to check emails while we're having a meeting. Yeah, we can just add it right here if you want to just say that again.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Chair, it's Jeff. I mean, this isn't one where we have to have technical detail in a moment. We just don't. I mean, this could literally be a motion that you just authorize staff to prepare the rule notice in accordance with the information provided to the staff and discussion held today. I mean, there's literally— this isn't like a, a reg set motion or something like that. So I don't want to get too, too wrapped around the axle on, on the specificity in the motion.
Robinson Okay, well, he's going to have to restate it if it's different than what he just Either that or we can change this to what he said and be able to look at it.
Lane Yeah, I—.
Wargo In accordance with the direction outlined in this discussion, in addition to How's that look? I mean, I think that looks good. I could, for clarity's sake, I could reread that if that's needed or not.
Robinson We have it on the screen, so it should be fine if that is what you're— what you did say.
Public (voice N) Yeah.
Robinson Okay, and we have a second. Any clarification, questions, comments before I go out for public comment? Okay, we have— we'll have 2 minutes. Hopefully we can get it— the timer working on this one, and I will start with Anya, please.
Public (voice Q) My name is Dr. Anya Wester with Footloose Montana. We strongly oppose this proposal and urge the commission to choose Alternative B and take no action. Action. This agenda item has been shrouded in secrecy. You've done everything to prevent the public from knowing and participating by not providing any details of this request until the last day before the deadline for written comments. In addition, you prevented the public from registering to comment for several days without any explanation, apology, or notification. Commissioner Vargo has repeatedly promoted proposals to increase the killing of large carnivores. He has added hound hunt.
Public (voice Q) Raised the otter kill, otter kill in Region 1, increased the statewide wolf kill quota from 250 to 300, and is now proposing a policy development that once again targets wolves and other predators. This proposal is a disaster and treats Montana's large carnivores as a problem that needs to be solved or even eliminated in order to produce more elk and mule deer. For Commissioners Wargo and Burrows and their ilk to kill. The larger issues are that this proposal demands the mass killing of predators simply because they kill prey animals that trophy hunters want to kill.
Public (voice Q) It turns predators into trophies, just like elk and mule deer have become mere trophies, and it creates a wildlife management that only benefits trophy hunting and trapping interests. Everyone else, the public and our wild animals, loose. This proposal would turn this commission into a mere special interest group and advance policies that are promoted by the Safari Club International. I'm exasperated about this commission and the process today, so do not pass this proposal. But I guess you have made up your mind already anyway, so thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Um, Mark Cook, please.
Public (voice F) Chair, Commissioners, Mark Cooke with Wolves of the Rockies, M-A-R-C-C-O-O-K-E. Thank you for the informative information leading up to this. Commissioners, Wolves of the Rockies supports wildlife management that is transparent, adapted, adaptive, and grounded in sound science, but we are deeply concerned about the timing and speed of this predator management proposal. Public comments closed only 6 days ago, yet today the commission is, is being asked to move this process forward. A policy that could affect wolves, mountain lions, bears, and other predators for years deserves more time, more information, and greater public scientific review.
Public (voice F) These concerns become even more significant when we combine the continuing surrounding Montana wolf population estimates and the transitioning to the IPOM 2.0. This is simply too important to rush. We ask respectfully that the department and the commission withdraw this proposal for now, address the unanswered questions and policy questions involving a broad range of stakeholders and independent scientists, and then bring it back through And we'll have a look at it and we'll decide then. Wolves of the Rockies is— I want to get this straight— Wolves of the Rockies is for bear chase hunting of ungulates.
Public (voice F) This should be— there should be no urgency greater than getting the science right. Thank you for the opportunity to speak.
Robinson Thank you. Uh, Mike or Shawn, please.
Public (voice V) Chair Robinson, Commissioners, Mike Mershon with Montana Wildlife Federation. Thanks for the chance to comment here. While I appreciate the sausage-making comment, the initial proposal's vagueness, along with the conversation in the room, I have to just continue to ask the Commission to hold off on this one until we can get some more clarity on what the proposal It's seeking to accomplish. I think there was a tremendous amount of value in the conversation that was being had today. So let me just quickly touch on 2 points.
Public (voice V) First of all, opening the path for one species to be managed based heavily on the objectives of another isn't a road that we want to encourage specifically as a bona fide policy. However, you know, We really need some more guidance adopting a framework that would allow the creation of some type of adaptive management plan for individual carnivore species. You know, specifically, let's talk about wolves and, and setting regional population objectives.
Public (voice O) Uh-huh.
Public (voice V) And then once this framework is in place, that could guide the commission, department, and stakeholders to be able to have conversations about major components like population objectives, monitoring programs, hunting regulation package alternatives. This process would then lead to separate harvest quotas in the regions and hunting districts. I think this is some of the guidance that you commissioners need to be able to make informed decisions.
Burrows Yes.
Public (voice V) And the stakeholders want to see play out in a public process. And so I am encouraged with the conversation that was had today. I would just ask us, let's, let's come back to this with some more clarity. Thank you for the chance.
Robinson Thank you. Ben Lamb, please.
Public (voice AG) Madam Chair, members of the Commission, thanks for all that you guys do. It's been a long afternoon. We're in support of this.
Robinson It's—.
Public (voice AG) This is a good idea. I understand the concerns from the folks who testified before, but if you move this forward, then you begin the public process. You begin the opportunity for the public to weigh in, help craft this, work with the agency, work with the Commission to develop a policy that Is not simply a stab in the dark when it comes to guessing about what's happening with deer and elk in areas where we'd like to see more.
Evan Klein (staff) Sure.
Public (voice AG) It actually elevates large carnivores to the same level biologically as other ungulate species. This is a great way for the agency to help inform the Commission on very real, very necessary actions that can be taken, it can also help dispel concerns where they are not. Commissioner Brooke's example of drought versus predation is a really, really good one.
Public (voice AG) When we layer on other things like CWD, EHD, disease issues, it's really important to recognize that, you know, it's a great Aldo Leopold quote, and I'll just paraphrase it, but, you know, intelligent tinkering is recognizing that everything is a cog in this. And so, you know, there's, there's a need to bring more information to bear on this discussion. And I think that starting this process, moving this forward, allowing the public to get their ideas in, and allowing the agency to pull something together that is going to work for all species is a really smart move, and I think it's, it's something that just hasn't been done in a lot of other states. So we would ask for a do pass.
Robinson Thank you. Um, Casey York, please.
Public (voice S) Madam Chair, Commissioners, Casey York with Trap Free Montana. The name is telling. This predator management policy is politically driven and a pattern Undoubtedly to kill more lions, wolves, bears, while dismissing the heavy, unethical, and unscientific hand they've been dealt and those dire consequences. There is already a placeholder for exactly this policy in the 2027 legislature. This is reminiscent of failed legislative attempts to make killing wildlife the preferred management method and bills and efforts to kill wolves for 9 months out of the year that failed.
Public (voice S) The results of poor data and aggressive predator management has now lowered the lion population possibly by 40%. There are at least 34% or less wolves, and 40% of the female bears killed this spring were lactating in our Region 2 alone, according to FWP. Bears are also struggling to find natural foods and prep for denning and are killed as a result. With approximately 157,000 elk and almost 500,000 deer, the prey-predator is significantly lopsided. Areas with populations, the main culprit is habitat.
Public (voice S) But, but if you want to kill carnivores to boost lower prey species, then will you stop this Seasonal kills across the majority of the state where prey are plentiful. PWD occurs. Coyotes are abundant as wolves help regulate them, and as carnivore killing is for trophies, hunter frustration, resentment, and profit under the guise of management. We don't need a predator policy. We need a pro-wildlife policy based on respect. Coexisting, understanding, support for all of the species in their rightful role and importance in the ecosystem. Please oppose. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you.
Public (voice P) Sure thing.
Public (voice W) Oopsie.
Robinson Jeff Darrow, please.
Public (voice T) Okay, I heard the bell.
Public (voice AA) This is, this is Jeff with the Montana Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife, and we support this proposal. It's a science-based adaptive predator management plan. Frankly, it gets old to, whether it's legislature or the commission meeting, to come and have polarized opposites on all these predator issues. I see this as a beginning to sit down and put something together So maybe we don't have to have these emotional arguments and, and heated debates and use science.
Public (voice AA) A predator management plan can outline strategies to control, maintain, or reduce specific predator populations, all in to protect livestock, human safety, and depressed ungulate populations. Montana does have a wide variety of predators. And they are abundant in some areas of the state, severely depressing our wildlife herds. It's time to consider this as a factor, and that needs that needs managed. I really was encouraged by the discussion that I heard amongst the commissioners today. Please give this a due pass. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Will Israel, please?
Public (voice H) Madam Chair and Commissioner. This is Will Israel, Executive Director for the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association. We support Alternative A and urge the Commission to approve it. We're inspired by the framework that's championed as the right approach. It begins with ungulate populate objective, population objectives, requires biological evidence before triggering management action, and applies tools where the science warrants it. It is a conservation policy, not an anti-predator policy. A formal rulemaking record also strengthens the legal defensibility of the Commission's decisions.
Public (voice H) Predator management in the Northern Rockies has been heavily litigated, and a durable policy framework protects the Commission's ability to act. We ask for a do pass. Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the Commission.
Robinson Thank you. Jennifer, please.
Public (voice X) Hi, thank you for the opportunity to speak this afternoon. I'll start with pivoting from the prior topic about the bear spray, because there was a line in there that read, in quote, the legislature has directed the commission to set policies for protection, preservation, management, and propagation of wildlife. Fish, game, furbearers, waterfowl, non-game species, and endangered species of the state. And it's to establish the hunting and fishing trapping rules. It does not include or mention predator or livestock management. And I also was concerned about the labeling of this being predator. And then doing a quick rude comparison between carnivore and predator, carnivore means you eat meat.
Public (voice X) A predator is the act hunting and killing the animals, which leaves a little difference between the wild ones and ourselves. So carnivores are essentially a healthy part of the ecosystem. I think we all agree on that, but killing them rarely achieves the long-term wildlife management goals that we refer to. The relationship of the carnivores and the ungulates population is not simply a Montana narrow situation. The topology, the environmental quality, disease like CWD, The quota is set in seasonal climate changes, human use dynamics between the cross-state, but not only cross-state, but across boundaries with Canada. There— excuse me— there isn't one lever, so to speak, in this dynamic topic. There's many button switches, kind of like a cockpit in an airplane.
Robinson Cockpit.
Public (voice X) So referring to the bobcat and the rabbit cycles, those can span 3 to 5 years. And so I think when it comes to a certain species relationship, It's not gonna be the same for every assessment. And then lastly, during the last meeting where the majority of the support that spoke was in favor of reevaluating how the wolves are cared for in the state, yet those voices appeared to go unlistened to. Beyond the thoughtful custodianship of the flora and fauna in Montana, it surprised me how the public input in a country proud of democracy and to be governed by people played out that way. The typical viewpoints were not included in those voices.
Public (voice X) And I'd like to think that if it was a school board who 2 of the members voiced their opinions, um, and influences how they would vote and then ask for parent input, the parents wouldn't feel it was a very sincere ask for their input. So I do ask to please listen to the whole of Montana's constituency as well as the Americans at large. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Glenda Meyer, please.
Emily Cooper (staff) Hello, thank you for this opportunity. I will just say that you guys already have a predator management control.
Robinson In fact, you are managing our predators to death. Predation is already addressed. Everything else, you've already addressed all that. So, I don't understand why you have to have even more management. You guys do it once a year and that should be it. If you're going to micromanage all kinds of species, who's not to say somebody's going to say there's not enough elk, which they already say, and then you kill more predators, which you already do. So I don't understand why you need even more levers, as you say. This, I just feel like these are typical last-minute shenanigans, and I know you've already approved it, but you should really oppose it.
Public (voice O) Thank you.
Robinson Chris Morgan, please.
Public (voice D) Chair, Commissioners, Chris Morgan, Montana Trappers Association. First and foremost, thanks for sticking into this meeting. It's gone awful long, and I know this wasn't a regularly scheduled one. So much appreciate that. I wanted to say we support this. You know, maybe I'm one of the only observant ones in the room, but I've seen several different instances in the last several commission meetings where this was spoken about. And I like to see the fact that it's continuing forward and maybe we're actually going to go somewhere with it. I think every commissioner, at least sitting in the room right now, has some sort of an appetite for Hasn't has mentioned that in the past. So appreciate you guys going forward with this, and I'd appreciate you to continue moving forward and pass this along.
Robinson Thank you. Thank you, Elena Tillman. Please.
Public (voice P) Hey, good afternoon, Madam Chair and Commissioners. I urge the Commission to reject. A carnivore management policy that continues to expand lethal control of wolves, mountain lions, and bears. I know in Region 1, Commissioner has repeatedly advocated for policies that increase opportunities to kill predators or carnivores through higher quotas, expanded seasons, and other lethal measures. But taken together, these proposals, in my opinion, move Montana towards managing predators primarily as animals to be removed. Removed rather than wildlife with important ecological roles. So, um, commission should require a documented species-specific conservation need before expanding lethal take.
Public (voice P) So that does mean looking at actual population numbers and verified depredation and conflict data, reproductive rates, and the cumulative impact of hunting, trapping, and other mortality, of which I don't believe is Is entirely factored in, not simply creating more opportunities to kill. Carnivore management should address demonstrated conflicts, not manufacture additional justifications for removal of these, of these animals. So I urge the commission to reject further expansion of lethal predator management in this ongoing discussion and require measurable conservation criteria before an increase in take is considered. Thank you very much.
Robinson Thank you.
Public (voice N) Thank you.
Robinson Marie Fuccaccio, please.
Public (voice Y) Sorry, my last name really does you in, huh? Sorry about that. It always does. First, I would like to thank the Chair Robinson and Commissioner Brooks for your attempts at transparency and measurable data requests. And Commissioner Especially for mentioning the different causes of deaths, like, you know, something other than predators by mentioning climate and environment. So I appreciate that. I'd like to mention that Trap Free Montana rep did a great job of putting forth stats and things like that. So I'm not going to repeat that.
Public (voice Y) So assuming that this whole thing is not an exercise in futility and Our public comments are going to be considered, like Chair Robinson did mention that they're going to take a look at comments. I've been sitting in my classroom all day long with my students who wanted to have a say, and they had to leave because the buses came, but they made a little recording for you.
Public (voice W) Say what?
Public (voice Y) So hopefully you guys can hear it. So those are the voices that don't often get a chance to speak out, and they're the future, and they want our wolves and bears and mountain lions on our landscape. So I do hope you were sincere about listening to public comment. Thank you.
Robinson Thank you. Cecilia M., please.
Public (voice N) Good afternoon, Commissioners, Madam Chair. My name is Cecilia Mink, and I'm from the Flathead Valley up here here in Region 1. Based on the lack of content and lack of information and science in this predator management position, I oppose this wholeheartedly. This seems to— its lack of substances of any kind, and quite frankly, has a little bit of a sneaky tactic that is strictly for political gains and benefits only certain special interest groups. As they say, you don't have enough information to make an informed decision at best.
Public (voice N) And again, I'm asking you to please oppose this because this really is truly an anti-predator policy versus a predator management policy. Thank you and have a good evening.
Robinson Thank you. Cassandra— oopsie cheese, sorry about that. Cassandra Riddick. Next, please.
Emily Cooper (staff) Chair Robinson and Commissioners, thank you for allowing my comments.
Public (voice AH) I am Cassandra Rideg, R-I-D-E-G, from Hughson, Montana. While I previously took a neutral stance on the predator management plan, I now urge you to postpone or deny this position— decision. The late-submitted amendment Systematic Zoom restriction barriers for registering for the comments and the fundamental ambiguity surrounding this plan's intent undermine the transparent public process.
Public (voice AH) As written in this intent to develop a plan serves no clear purpose beyond further suppressing wildlife populations that have already been drastically manipulated and reduced. Our wildlife requires no additional management. Instead, the commission must provide clear justification for the plan's intended goals. Please table or deny this decision until a future meeting. And I support everything that Jennifer said. And thank you very much for the time to comment.
Robinson Thank you. Kim Bean, please.
Public (voice AC) Chair Robinson, Commission, my name is Kim Bean. I am speaking on behalf of Wolf and Wildlife Advocates. Before you— before you direct FWP to develop this predator policy, answer the basic question: which herds need help, and what evidence shows that killing more predators will help them? Let's start with Region 1. FWP says dense forest prevents reliable aerial counts for elk in most hunting districts. Some surveyed herds are being— are below their goals, and that deserves attention. But FWP also reports an improving bull harvest trend over the past 6 years after accounting for an unusual migration. Which specific herd is being held down by which predator? I don't know. Region 2 tells a different story.
Public (voice AC) FWP counts 3,015 elk in the Phillipsburg Valley herd in 2026. Its goal was 1,040 to 1,560. Biologists point to mild winters, high calf survival, and limited cow elk harvest as a reason the herd has grown. Other herds in the region are also above their goals. Let's go to Region 3, 380 and 392 elk. It's complicated to find counts because of where they're at. Your 90% white deer decline has to do with chronic wasting disease. And deliberate hunter harvest. I can continue to go down the list to every district and find nothing about predators. These are different conditions requiring different answers. The proposed policy, however, allows action when information merely suggests predation is contributing.
Public (voice AC) It then calls for consistently elevated management across relevant predator species, even when one is identified as the primary contributor. What evidence would justify increase— increasing pressure on wolves when mountain lions are the demonstrated concern, or on either species when habitat, weather, hunting, and survey conditions better explain the numbers? Require FWP to identify the herd, establish what is limiting it, justify action against each predator species, and measure the result. If the action fails to help, require it to stop. An elk herd below goal is reason for investigation. It is not a blank check for killing predators.
Robinson Thank you. Thank you. Rubery, please. Yvette, you are—.
Public (voice Q) There you go.
Public (voice P) Okay.
Public (voice Z) Hi, my name is Yvette Rubery. I'm calling from Florida, but I live in Western New York. I've always Always been a wolf lover but became an advocate after the Cody Roberts wolf torture case. I am— I'd like to speak for the wolves, okay? I believe that we should not hunt wolves at all because they are vital to our environment, our economy, and our ethics. And here is why. The apex predators drive the ecosystem health. Wolves keep deer and elk herds moving, which prevents Overgrazing near rivers, which allows vegetation to recover, stabilizes riverbanks. Natural disease control. Wolves target the sickest and the weakest animals.
Public (voice Z) This helps contain dangerous contagious diseases like chronic wasting disease. Wolves have a complex social structure. They live in a family unit, and when the dominant pack leader is killed, it often Mm-hmm. Disrupts the entire pack, leading to increased livestock conflicts because younger, less experienced wolves resort to easier prey. Ecotourism boosts— live wolves are worth more than dead ones. They bring in millions of dollars annually, especially to areas like Yellowstone National Park. And the flawed rationale, because hunters like to claim that wolves decimate game populations, but data shows deer and elk numbers remain strong.
Public (voice Z) Livestock losses to wolves also account for less than 1% of overall livestock mortality, which I believe rangers are usually compensated as well. So to sum it up, managing wolves through hunting is a self-justified mechanism to generate revenue from tags and to satisfy human recreation rather than a requirement for maintaining the balance of nature.
Public (voice X) Thank you for your time.
Robinson Thank you. Dagmar Riddle, please. You are still muted.
Public (voice D) There you go.
Public (voice Y) Hear me?
Public (voice AC) Okay.
Robinson My name is Dagmar Riddle, and I live in Whitehall, Montana, and I have a degree in environmental management and restoration Technology, and I have a certificate in fish and wildlife law enforcement. I am totally against this stupid thing that, that you're trying to, uh, address. Predator management is out of control already. You need to have non-NGOs, uh, scientists addressing the situations with the predators. The predators are just overhunted, overkilled to To the convenience of hunters and trappers and, and livestock producers. We need predators.
Robinson They were here for millions of years with ungulates, and they all coexisted, and we need to coexist with them. And this commission is just out of control with killing predators, wolves, and wildlife.
Public (voice S) Stop.
Public (voice AH) That's it.
Robinson Thank you. Is there anyone in the regional office Any other public witnesses who would like to speak? One more second, I'll give you. Okay. I don't see anybody. Okay.
Robinson I just, I guess I'm just gonna make the statement that management doesn't mean killing More management could be trying to target areas of concern, which is exactly what, what I think we're trying to do here is be more targeted and focused on the areas that need, need to be targeted. And so management doesn't necessarily just mean that we want to kill a bunch more predators.
Evan Klein (staff) So.
Robinson Any comments or questions before we go to vote? Oh, Commissioner Gagnon. Madam Chair, thank you. Uh, just maybe a question back to Quinton and/or the department to the ability for public participation in the development of policy. And also, you know, I heard the comments about the naming of the policy. And it really does indicate something as an outcome, and I wonder if that is part of the consideration during the development.
Quentin (staff) This is Quentin, Chair, Commissioner Gagnon. This is Quentin. Absolutely. Very fundamental first step. Whatever else the language would be characterized, if this moves forward at whatever next Commission meeting it would be, It would be draft, and it would be draft from top to bottom, from left to right. Or any— of course, that would be a public venue, just as this one is here today. And then if that went forward, just to add to that, if that went— whatever that product was edited as, or as presented to the public and the Commission, if it went forward, it would come back a third time.
Quentin (staff) It would come back a second time as language with public comment reviewed and then public comment opportunity at that meeting itself. Chair, Commissioner Gagnon.
Robinson Quentin, thank you. Yeah, Vice Chair Walsh.
Walsh Yeah, just to follow up on the same theme, this is really maybe a clarification question for Jeff. The, you know, there are several commenters voiced concern about The process being rushed or not having ample opportunity to be involved in the next steps on this. My understanding is we're now, if we approve this, we're entering an 18-month, maybe a 24-month process. Is that correct?
Jeff Hindoien (staff) Madam Chair, Vice Chair Walsh, it may, may not take that long, but you're certainly entering a process because we'll have multiple opportunities opportunities for public comment on the substance concept at a much greater level of detail than what's out there today. I mean, strictly speaking, from a technical standpoint, there probably wasn't a legal obligation to solicit public comment on this because it's not a final agency action. It's 2 or 3 or 4 steps removed from the point in time When the public is actually commenting on something that you as a commission or an agency for purposes of MAPA would be taking action on as a final action.
Jeff Hindoien (staff) So there will be a host of opportunities going forward for the comment from the public on, on what this may end up looking like.
Walsh Thank you.
Robinson Commissioner Burrows.
Public (voice W) Thanks, Chair.
Burrows A couple things, Commissioner Gagnon hit it a little bit. Maybe we need to tweak the name. Maybe predator management policy wasn't the best thing to call it. That's just what we came up with at the times we were developing it. Interesting public comment because I heard a handful of folks say they didn't want— they wanted us to vote against the predator management policy. But then proceeded to justify or advocate for predator management through a predator management policy. So I'm kind of scratching my head trying to figure out exactly what they want, and vice versa. We've been accused of— if, if we would have sat down, uh, you know, Commissioner Wargo and I've had some discussions about the predator management policy.
Burrows If we would have sat down and fully drafted a predator management policy, That was ready to go for public review in the MAPA process. My guess is, is we would have been chastised for predetermined developing a policy that was too far along. So I guess it kind of feels like you can't win for losing some of these folks. I think they just fundamentally disagree with anything that's going to come out of here. So I guess I'd ask, what what do you want? Do you want to be involved early and often in the process and develop a policy? From the ground floor, or would you like us to develop a policy that's got the detail already in it and have public comments? So it's just it it it's difficult to know exactly what they want.
Burrows Just trying to address some of the things that were brought up: timing and speed, predator management policy versus what we've been doing. I've heard from some of my friends that testified today, Mark Cook and Casey. They're frustrated with the process of us walking into a commission meeting and setting a wolf quota, not using science. And today what we advocated for, I think, was let's sit down, let's work with the groups, let's work with the department, come up with metrics, justification, levers, tools, whatever you want to call them, and have some predictability to the process. So I, I guess I don't know exactly how to move forward. If you like the status quo, I mean, I could live with it.
Burrows I just— I've heard it's a disservice from both sides to walk in and do this without a plan, without a policy, without predictability. So I think it's a good thing, and I hope we'll support it.
Robinson Any other questions or comments from the Commission? Okay. All those in favor of the motion signify by saying aye.
Public (voice H) Aye.
Late posting of meeting materials and Commission transparency
Robinson All right, same sign. Okay, motion carries. Only thing left we have on the agenda is public comment on items not on the agenda. A reminder that do not repeat what we've already discussed today, and this is a special meeting. We'll be meeting again, going to take 1-minute comments It's on the items not on the agenda. So, see, change the timer to 1 minute, please.
Quentin (staff) Thank you.
Robinson Kim Bean, please. You are muted still.
Public (voice AC) You got me. Thank you very much, Chair, Commissioners, Kim Bean, Wolf and Wildlife Advocates. My main comment is the fact that the frustration you hear, Commissioner, is the fact that we get a PI the day before comment closing, and that is a frustration because there's an expectation that we understand what you're thinking and what you want. This is an issue. This is a transparency issue. It's a question in ethics. It's a question in numerous problems that we have. Communication's a very big thing.
Public (voice AC) Understanding what your objective is, and we hear your objectives a lot, and the objective's usually killing. And so there's frustration. And it's not that we don't agree with certain things, because I think you heard today that some of us do agree. But your transparency is lacking, and the frustration lies with that. So once again, when we don't see your actions until it's too late, there's a problem.
Public (voice Q) Thank you.
Consideration of non-game species in wildlife management
Robinson Thank you. Casey York, please.
Public (voice S) Madam Chair, Commissioners, real quick, I just wanted to bring up something mentioned about rabbits and bobcat. Again, rabbits are considered non-game, and as non-game, they receive no state or federal protection or regulations. So rabbits can be killed, like many species in Montana, year-round, unreported, unlimited. So when we're talking about wildlife, Yeah. We can't just talk about big game and Um, you know, prey game species, elk, deer, moose, etc., bear, wolves.
Public (voice S) You have to remember the majority of the wildlife in Montana is classified as non-game, and they're forgotten, and they have a role, and they have an impact. So when we're— Hopefully you will change the name and you will change the planning that seems very clear. Um, I won't— sorry, I'm going back onto that. But let's start addressing all the wildlife, please. That's your role, and thank you.
Comprehensive ecosystem and wildlife health framework
Robinson Thank you. Anya Heister, please. You're still muted. There you go.
Public (voice Q) Yes, thank you. So, um, I don't understand why this Commission is not interested in, in developing a more comprehensive wildlife policy, um, given the threats of, of climate change and accelerating species extinction— extinctions. Why not develop a comprehensive ecosystem and wildlife health framework? Why the focus, the relentless focus on killing predators?
Public (voice Q) And, you know, Leslie, you noted that management doesn't mean more killing, but with this commission, it does. Can I still speak, or am I done?
Robinson Well, your time's not up yet, but up now. It is now.
Public (voice Q) Okay, so I, I don't understand why this commission is just not—.
Robinson All right, I don't see any other hands raised. Thank you everyone for, uh, all your time today. I appreciate it. And we will meet again in October. Just a reminder that that meeting will be on October 14th, and we will also be doing it virtually. Thank you everyone, and have a good evening.
Public (voice N) Thank you.
Public (voice S) Thank you.
Wargo Thanks, staff.
Evan Klein (staff) Thank you.